Empathy Unlimited: The Future of Neurodiverse Employment with Mark Fister
Chaya and Mike sit down with Mark Fister, CTO of Haystack Unlimited and proud ADHDer. Mark sheds light on the challenges that neurodivergent individuals face during the interview process and day-to-day job duties, what kind of necessary accommodations foster success, and how his company is building a supportive future for neurodiverse workers.
We Also Cover:
- The Double Empathy Problem
- The Myth of Social Incompatibility
- Innovation Within Neurodivergent Communities
- Psychological Safety in the Workplace
- Blind Recruiting and Unconscious Bias
- The Role of AI in Neurodiverse Accommodations
- Haystack Unlimited's Video Game for Job Recruitment
Quotes:
- "The fundamental problem is called unconscious human bias, which has served humans very well from an evolutionary perspective, but does not serve us well in 2024, nor will it serve us well onwards."
- "80% of autistic people are unemployed or underemployed."
- "They have strong deductive reasoning and sustained concentration. But over there in the job, they can't seem to do anything. They can't seem to cut butter with a with a butter knife. Why is that? There's more to this than meets the eye."
- "Connect those words, nonjudgmental and love. Maybe that's my favorite two words connected together."
About Mark Fister:
Mark Fister is a father and husband, executive, snowboarder, technologist, trail runner, speaker, canyoneer, author, investor, and terrible chess player. Mark loves to see business and technology from as many perspectives as possible. To wit, he has held 20 different roles in the software industry at companies like Dell, IBM, eBay, PayPal, and even his own company.
Recently, Mark has been learning about servant leadership. After interviewing over 100 people on the topic, he discovered he was on the autism spectrum, which brought clarity to his life. After some soul searching, he is now dedicated to ending joblessness for neurodivergents everywhere through previous work at Auticon and BeMe and now his own company, Haystack Unlimited.
Connect with Mark:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/markfister/
https://servantleadershipconsulting.net/
https://www.theoctopusmovement.org/
Related Reading:
- Autistic peer-to-peer information transfer is highly effective - A Game of Autistic Telephone
As always, thanks for lending us your ears and keep igniting that spark!
Stay Connected:
- Website: https://sparklaunchpodcast.com/
- ADHD Coaching & Workshops: https://www.sparklaunch.org/
- Chaya on Instagram
- Mike on Instagram
- Want To Be a Guest? https://sparklaunchpodcast.com/booking
Transcript
You've landed at Spark Launch, the guide star for embracing what it means to be neurodiverse.
Speaker:I'm Mike Cornell, joined by CEO of Spark Launch, Chaya Mallavaram.
Speaker:Here, we navigate mental health triumphs and tribulations from all across the spectrum, charting a course of the shared experiences that unite us, and discovering how to embody the unique strengths within neurodivergent and neurotypical alike, igniting your spark and launching it into a better tomorrow.
Speaker:Hello there.
Speaker:I'm Mike.
Speaker:I'm Chaya.
Speaker:And we are thrilled to have with us Mark Fister, an AuDHD CTO of Haystack Unlimited.
Speaker:Mark and his team are on a mission to forge a new path for gainful neurodivergent employment.
Speaker:In doing so, they're looking to break barriers, foster inclusion in the workplace, and fill a gap that comes up time and time again with anyone on the spectrum, the dreaded interview process.
Speaker:Speaking as someone who either facilitates or attends autism support groups, this is one of the most broached topics.
Speaker:So I'm really looking forward to digging in as I know you have a lot to say on the subject.
Speaker:And thank you for coming on, Mark.
Speaker:You bet.
Speaker:It's a pleasure and an honor.
Speaker:Welcome, Mark.
Speaker:So tell us about your company and about autism a little bit.
Speaker:For me, I have ADHD.
Speaker:I my awareness to autism is limited.
Speaker:I might be autistic for all you know.
Speaker:So just a little bit about that and about the company and what actually hinders an autistic person in the interview process in securing the job.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:This is gonna be fun.
Speaker:When you're autistic and you have no idea, that's one thing because I lived 46 years of my life that way.
Speaker:Nobody ever came up to me and said, hey.
Speaker:Hey, Mark.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:You kinda have some quirks.
Speaker:You have some differences maybe.
Speaker:Nobody ever once said that to me.
Speaker:In part, maybe that's because I was in tech.
Speaker:And in tech, it's it's, I don't know, maybe 40% autistic.
Speaker:8 50 yet.
Speaker:Nobody really knows.
Speaker:There are some numbers that are floated around.
Speaker:Maybe I've heard as high as 80% autistic, but the point is that autistic people blend in with other autistic people, and they don't have any idea until they do.
Speaker:And so that moment of awareness didn't come while I was sitting in a Socrates like moment, you know, know thyself.
Speaker:It came after 6 years of sort of having a difference of opinion with my my ex wife who said, Mark, you're you're autistic.
Speaker:And I, of course, asked doctor Google immediately right after we're married.
Speaker:What is you know?
Speaker:And doctor Google tells me all about it.
Speaker:And, of course, I dig in and read and read and learn more and take a few online tests and or online tests later, and I'm not identifying that way.
Speaker:And it was 6 years after that point where it would come up, especially during an argument, there you go being aspie again.
Speaker:There you go being autistic again.
Speaker:And I finally had an and asked her, pretty please.
Speaker:Just send send me, you know, wherever you want me to go.
Speaker:Let's let's get to the bottom of this.
Speaker:And the first therapist that we go to, a neuropsychologist, could not diagnose me as autistic.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:It's because that particular test is only evidence based up until age 14.
Speaker:After 14, because autism is a developmental difference, that is, in certain areas of of life, autistic people develop slower, but they still develop.
Speaker:Around 14, often autistic people develop socialization, communication, reciprocal relationships.
Speaker:These types of differences in autistic people are developed slower.
Speaker:By 14, they tend to be, but not always, better or, you know, teen, they tend to be, but not always, better or more neurotypical or, you know, masking is a skill that can be learned.
Speaker:For me, I didn't learn it as masking as something I felt forced to do, but as an extrovert, I wanted to.
Speaker:So I think I learned those skills a little earlier than 14.
Speaker:But the point is that this is only evidence based up up until that point, and there is no series of tests you can do to be diagnosed autistic.
Speaker:So that's point number 1.
Speaker:There is no series of tests you can do as an adult on the spectrum to be diagnosed autistic.
Speaker:It's a descriptive framework.
Speaker:So the therapist will ask some questions, will dive kind of deeper into childhood because that's where it's more evidence based.
Speaker:That's where it's more obvious that a person is autistic.
Speaker:So with that said, if you look at my childhood, and that's when I finally, 6 days after diagnosis, in that moment of diagnosis, I'm like, doc, I don't get it.
Speaker:Please just, you know, give me 3 books to read.
Speaker:Of course, if that's not an autistic response, I don't know what is.
Speaker:3 books, not one.
Speaker:And so it was while reading the second book that my jaw dropped.
Speaker:I mean, it went through the floor and crashed through the earth's crust and into the mantle, and that was way too hot.
Speaker:So it bounced back up into the skull.
Speaker:And in that moment, I identified as autistic.
Speaker:That became a self schema.
Speaker:So with my new identity and that sudden awareness, you know, tranquility and a level of of know thyself really came to be a level of enlightenment.
Speaker:And the reason why is because I realized I was not a broken human being in certain regards, like as a 2 year old not wanting to learn how to talk in complete sentences, but rather doing jigsaw puzzles.
Speaker:You know, I had 4 100 piece jigsaw puzzles lined up, and and that was when I was 2.
Speaker:And what kid looks through every single page thousands of pages of the encyclopedia looking for maps at h 3, autistic ones.
Speaker:And what kid has no friends between 5th grade and 8th grade?
Speaker:Not for lack of trying because, like I said, I had this extroverted I wanted to connect.
Speaker:I just didn't know how until I read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie in 8th grade.
Speaker:And then I'm like, you know, non obvious techniques to make friends.
Speaker:So that's the story of one autistic life and how at age 46, the awareness came to be.
Speaker:But in that interim, between no friends and 46, I had a successful career in tech, worked for eBay and PayPal for 18 years, and I was sort of among my people.
Speaker:There are a lot of autistic ADHDers, as well as autistics and ADHDers in tech.
Speaker:So, really, I found my flock and thrived.
Speaker:And so here I am today, 5 years later, I stand before now sit before you today at 51 and feeling just overjoyed to be alive, overjoyed to be ADHD, and I'd be happy to make a few more points about this intersectionality between autism and ADHD, if you like.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The first thing that stood out is my own childhood, and I had no friends to especially in school.
Speaker:In school up until 7th grade, except for 1.
Speaker:But later on as an adult, I put in all my efforts to go find that friend because that friend understood me.
Speaker:And till today, we are good friends.
Speaker:And so my entire middle school, I was alone, and I decided to spend my the lunch break with their siblings who were in kindergarten.
Speaker:And I would go and play with them in the playground because lot of my age group friends wanted to hang out with me.
Speaker:I don't know what happened because I don't remember, but I didn't but for sure, I know my lunch breaks were really boring, and so I just found how to found my own way to entertain myself by playing the children because I love love love children and they are innocent and they're not judgy.
Speaker:And so yeah.
Speaker:And plus, I was in a all girls school.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:So all of that as you were talking about oh, wow.
Speaker:As I grew up, I although it was challenging, I figured out a lot of things.
Speaker:So so a lot of those I'm like, I'm curious about those books.
Speaker:So maybe you can share that and also the relationship about ADHD and autism.
Speaker:And, yeah, I was in tech too.
Speaker:So for 22 years, I was a developer.
Speaker:I loved me and my code and the computer.
Speaker:And I didn't want to participate in any office politics and stuff like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Sounds familiar.
Speaker:So on the books, that's what you asked about first.
Speaker:The second book so the first book, I didn't identify with being autistic at all because the descriptive framework that was used in the book really pertained most to people with level 3 support.
Speaker:So in autism, back in the day, there was, you know, sort of a very severe form, and that was called autism.
Speaker:And today, autism is very different.
Speaker:It's defined quite differently.
Speaker:And so therapists have to and and the medical community has to describe it in terms of levels of support, so high functioning, mid functioning, low functioning.
Speaker:And I don't really like that framework because it sort of labels people and and provides too much medical, you know, focus on the negative.
Speaker:I prefer strength based approaches, less judgmental, less stigma.
Speaker:And so with that said, the first book just didn't I I didn't resonate with it at all.
Speaker:The second book, it it wasn't what the second book was or how it was presenting it.
Speaker:It's that it allowed me to to stop focusing on current self.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:What is the self?
Speaker:It's past self, current self, possible, or future selves, along with a set of self schemas.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Identify as male, as straight, as autistic, as ADHD, as whatever else, a member of this organization or church or and those are all self schemas.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So when I looked at past self suddenly while reading that second book, it wasn't the second book that made me do it.
Speaker:It was, I don't know, some part of my ADHD, you know, nonlinear brain that made me bounce to my childhood.
Speaker:And suddenly, I saw an autistic child, and I started thinking about the next thing and the next thing and connecting all of the dots and said, wow.
Speaker:If this isn't proof that a person can learn and grow, that being autistic is is it's possible to grow just slower in some regards, but almost every autistic person grows faster than peers in other regards.
Speaker:So, you know, doing jigsaw puzzles at age 2 and understanding maps at age 3 and reading at the 3rd grade level at at age 4.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:So, clearly, certain skills, certain parts of what it means to be human were developing more slowly in this child and other parts developing much more rapidly.
Speaker:And so those rapidly parts, the strengths that I had, that I was gifted with, you know, sperm and egg got together, had a party, and certain things, like I said, slower and certain things faster.
Speaker:So that's really the hallmark of autism, is quite simply, some things are quite developed and developed well and developed to a very fine point and other things less so.
Speaker:I'd like to share my screen if I have permission to now transition to and I never got to the 3rd book because ADHD, I guess.
Speaker:Because I already had what I wanted and what I needed is now a new frame for who I am.
Speaker:And I'd like to share a Venn diagram because what autistic ADHDer doesn't love Venn diagrams?
Speaker:This is the intersectionality between autism and ADHD, but it intersects one more Venn diagram.
Speaker:We've probably all seen the intersection between autism and ADHD at some point or another because they share so many traits.
Speaker:This one intersects a third circle, and it's giftedness.
Speaker:Because if we look at just gifted people without regards to neurotype no regards.
Speaker:You look at gifted people, and they have certain traits.
Speaker:And so, you know, as a an autistic child who, you know, like I said, puzzles and maps, later reading and math, and then later valedictorian of the high school class.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I guess I have to identify as all 3.
Speaker:So here we go.
Speaker:I'm going to share this Venn diagram.
Speaker:I didn't create it.
Speaker:What you'll do is just to find this yourself, you'll just Google what I did or, in my case, perplexity, what I did.
Speaker:Autism, ADHD, gifted, then, and you'll find it immediately.
Speaker:Autism on the top, ADHD on the left, giftedness on the right.
Speaker:And there's an intersection between all 3, emotional sensitivity, sensory differences, interest driven, asynchronous development, unique ways of learning, intense curiosity, executive function difficulties, and divergent slash creative thinking.
Speaker:I have a patent to my name, so that kind of puts you in the direction of creative or divergent thinking.
Speaker:I I was the inventor of another thing that I can't talk too much about, you know, PayPal's reliability model that was that had my name on it.
Speaker:But I identify with all these things in the center and pretty close to everything as you go to the outsides of this diagram, the strictly autistic things, the strictly ADHD, and the strictly giftedness things.
Speaker:I don't identify with all of the aspects of of all of them, but most.
Speaker:And one other way of looking at this, again, from the strengths based model, we're going to now search for autistic strengths.
Speaker:And I had another jaw dropping moment.
Speaker:This was probably 6 months after the diagnosis and, of course, that 6 days later, self identification.
Speaker:6 months afterwards, I said, oh my gosh.
Speaker:There are highly correlated strengths just as highly correlated as challenges?
Speaker:Let me learn more.
Speaker:Expertise and special interests, hyperfocus, exceptional memory, attention to detail, creative problem solving, enhanced perception, visual and pattern recognition, strong sense of justice.
Speaker:Oh my gosh.
Speaker:When I got to that one, I said, oh, so is that why I want to solve this world problem, the crime against humanity?
Speaker:80% of autistic people are unemployed or underemployed.
Speaker:So now you're getting back to we are getting back to one of the original questions, what does my company do?
Speaker:I hope I answered your question about intersectionality, about the books, turn to my company.
Speaker:So I was sitting there retired writing a book.
Speaker:This was March of this year.
Speaker:I had just, you know, told my my boss that I was retiring.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Please.
Speaker:Can you can you stay another month?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'll stay another month.
Speaker:So I did.
Speaker:So the last day of February was my last day, and I was writing a book, but it just kept bothering me that 80% of autistic people are un or underemployed.
Speaker:And I asked myself, why is that?
Speaker:Because, apparently, I'm in the 20%, so I don't quite relate very well to this 80% problem.
Speaker:So to learn more, I mean, I just this was back in 2020.
Speaker:I dug in, and I became the CTO of Autocon, which stands for autistic consulting.
Speaker:So you can go to Autocon and get a software engineer who's autistic, bring them into your team, and learn about, you know, via an experiential method as opposed to doctor Google method.
Speaker:Experiential is always better, always, to interact with another autistic person.
Speaker:And so that's what Oticon does.
Speaker:I was the sort of tech recruiter for them as well as doing some other things.
Speaker:So what I learned from that is what it means for a human to show up in that level 2 support need.
Speaker:So if Elon Musk and I are in level 1, where we can be independent for the most part, we need certain supports, but we don't have high support needs.
Speaker:80% of job seekers who are artistic, though, do have these stronger you know, they need accommodations slash success enablers, and, unfortunately, they simply aren't getting them in the interview process.
Speaker:They aren't getting them in the workplace, in part because self advocacy may be a challenge.
Speaker:Most autistic people I've talked to have kind of a hard time with self advocacy saying, I need this to thrive.
Speaker:I need this to thrive.
Speaker:I need this to thrive.
Speaker:And here's how I'd like you to present those to me.
Speaker:You know, noise canceling headphones, and the list goes on.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:With that said, pause and reflect on how can you actually single handedly, but know with the help of others really, change this 80% statistic.
Speaker:That was what I was obsessed with as I was sitting there in my underwear, retired.
Speaker:Just kidding.
Speaker:It wasn't in my underwear.
Speaker:That was for, you know, effect.
Speaker:But I was sitting there, I would was really boggling over this 80% thing, and I've met about 5 or 600 autistic people at that point who were applying for jobs at Oticon and said, yeah.
Speaker:They do show up differently even than I do.
Speaker:So when you've met 1 person on the spectrum, you've met just 1 person on the spectrum.
Speaker:And in that moment, thought to myself, okay.
Speaker:It's gotta be a 2 pronged approach.
Speaker:You can't just offer a software solution, a SaaS solution that, you know, people will hire do blind hiring and forego the interview process because autistic people get filtered out of that process all the time.
Speaker:80% of them do, in fact.
Speaker:You have to have a framework or reasoning about human capability, and you have to have a way to do that in a blind way.
Speaker:You don't know their name, their gender, their sexual orientation, their neurodivergency or not.
Speaker:You don't know anything.
Speaker:You just know that they have all these strengths, and that correlates strongly with this job type, this job title.
Speaker:Fantastic.
Speaker:If I can do that, then I've solved half of the world's problem.
Speaker:Blind recruiting.
Speaker:What if?
Speaker:I love those 2 words connected.
Speaker:They're my favorite 2 words connected.
Speaker:What if?
Speaker:Because, again, strong sense of justice.
Speaker:Alright?
Speaker:So if I can help solve this 80% problem, I will have lived a good life.
Speaker:There's another component to it, and I'm gonna stop my autistic ramble in just a second.
Speaker:The other component is social.
Speaker:But, fundamentally, I'm a systems thinker, and I think in terms of systems, human interconnected with machine, interconnected with earth and science, it's all systems.
Speaker:So the fundamental problem is called unconscious human bias, which has served humans very well from an evolutionary perspective, but does not serve us well in 2024, nor will it serve us well onwards because we aren't spying a person with different colored feathers in their address.
Speaker:We aren't spying a person with different colored face paint and saying, danger, danger.
Speaker:That person might be trying to kill me.
Speaker:We're saying, oh, they have different colored face paint called tattoos.
Speaker:So face tattoos might scare us from an unconscious human bias perspective, but it should not hire scare us from a hiring perspective, from a talent assessment.
Speaker:It's not just the front door hiring.
Speaker:It's the interior door's promotion or selection to go on stage and be celebrated.
Speaker:But it's also the backdoor too who gets fired and laid off the most.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It's the neurodivergent people and the people who are simply different in ways that we all know.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Women, older people, people with face tattoos.
Speaker:You know, the list goes on and on.
Speaker:So many different subtypes that unconscious biases really are operational against.
Speaker:So how do you solve that?
Speaker:Again, it's a social challenge to take the human and other sources of bias because machines have bias too.
Speaker:No matter how you look at this problem, there's a there are biases everywhere.
Speaker:So you have to unbiased the whole thing and think differently, or as the autistic Steve Jobs would say, think different, which, of course, isn't even proper English.
Speaker:But that's the point.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:So my, autistic diatribe has come to an end.
Speaker:That's what I'm up to, creating a social movement on the one hand, creating a software solution for blind recruiting of autistic people.
Speaker:That's our initial market.
Speaker:On the other hand, And for that, we're creating a video game to assess talent as opposed to a social experience that creates anxiety in the 80% of autistic people.
Speaker:Fascinating.
Speaker:I would love to know more about the the game aspect and how that works.
Speaker:So without a psychometrician who has the exact skills that our autistic ADHD psychometrician has, it would be challenging to do anything with a video game.
Speaker:But this person has a master's degree 3 master's degrees.
Speaker:Who does that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You guessed it.
Speaker:Autistic people who are obsessed with learning all of the things in all of the adjacent spaces end up accidentally with 3 master's degree.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:Psychometrician says industrial organizational psychology and statistics, but she also has a separate education related master's degree, specifically, you know, the the kind of thing that's important for learning and development in the workplace, education.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:So she's amazing.
Speaker:She has this brain that, wow, I can't even begin to hold a candle to that.
Speaker:So she has been obsessing over over what it would take to get autistic people who struggle work for over 10 years.
Speaker:And turns out I've been struggling with that for 3 years, and the founder had been struggling with that for 20 years.
Speaker:So we all found each other.
Speaker:How is that possible?
Speaker:Well, the universe has its ways of pulling people together that should be together to work on a big idea.
Speaker:And it's I'm just the most fortunate human on the planet right now because I found these these 3 other or 2 other people, and I'm one of the 3.
Speaker:But just wait.
Speaker:There's more.
Speaker:The universe brought us Michael Rifkin, who is our chief product officer and chief sort of gaming officer.
Speaker:He ran a game studio with ADHD, and he's just brilliant.
Speaker:So he's been helping us build this video game.
Speaker:So, again, that wouldn't be enough if it weren't for the talents of the industrial organizational psychology and statistics guru.
Speaker:And so creating psychometrics that will one day be evidence based, you know, from a Harvard University and North Northeastern University perspective, essentially proving evidence based that it actually works, that we're not just trying to say, yeah.
Speaker:This person has these great strengths, and then, you know, they get brought into the workplace.
Speaker:And then we get get called a liar because for some reason, it didn't translate to being a good employee.
Speaker:Well, that's still gonna happen.
Speaker:Even if it is evidence based, we can say they have, you know, strong deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning and sustained concentration.
Speaker:But over there in the job, they can't seem to do anything.
Speaker:They can't seem to cut butter with a with a butter knife.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Why is that?
Speaker:Well, there's a lot more to this than meets the eye.
Speaker:And so we're building a whole framework around the human well beyond what the game can assess.
Speaker:Framework says there's a lot more to it.
Speaker:Environment.
Speaker:Some autistic people can thrive in a WeWork.
Speaker:Others, not at all.
Speaker:So personal characteristics are really key to model, but almost no job description ever calls anything out in terms of the work environment.
Speaker:And how it'll be in a noisy, you know, noisy open office space.
Speaker:Said 20%, that's fine.
Speaker:Said 80%, no thanks.
Speaker:I don't wanna work there because it said that in the job description said no job description ever.
Speaker:So we end up with these mismatches between got talent and want talent, and things don't work out, and it may not always be why you think it is.
Speaker:So the video game is part of to to go back to your question, Mike, a video game is part of the assessment.
Speaker:It helps us with cognitive strengths.
Speaker:The idea is to build a strengths profile.
Speaker:Yeah?
Speaker:So how do you do that?
Speaker:Cognitive strengths?
Speaker:It helps with communication strengths because now with the advent of chatbot a couple years ago, it's possible to have a machine interact with a human in a much more language natural way, either via this, because some autistic people prefer not to use their mouth to communicate, or can't.
Speaker:There are a lot of you can, go web search autism mute or autism nonspeaking, autism nonverbal.
Speaker:All of those will yield results.
Speaker:There there are a there's a high correlation of of people who have oral communication differences and autistics.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:With that said, they're both modalities to interact with the robot that follows you around.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's a little creepy, but, hey.
Speaker:You don't even see the robot unless you turn your character around in the video game, and you can interact with with the robot.
Speaker:And I'm not gonna give too much away, but that's important to interact with this robot.
Speaker:There are puzzles in the game.
Speaker:So, essentially, it's a puzzle slash mystery game.
Speaker:It's not a, you know, shoot them up.
Speaker:You need a ton of hand eye coordination to do this.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:It's not that.
Speaker:Again, cognitive strengths, communication strengths, or communication preferences in general, you know, typing versus oral, and then inserting only the behavioral strengths that actually matter when it comes to job productivity.
Speaker:Most behavioral assessments are irrelevant, like most of the MBTI, which is Myers Briggs.
Speaker:I'm an ENTP in case you cared, but that's only my center of gravity.
Speaker:I gravitate towards other things in other cases, especially when under stress.
Speaker:But behavioral assessments really don't tell you what you think they do, and it tends to pinch in whole people.
Speaker:So we believe that behavioral assessments are usually bad because they label you.
Speaker:Even though it's a a proper center of gravity label, you have to stay away from behavioral ranks with the exception of 1 or 2 I don't know exactly the number.
Speaker:Only Nicole, our psychometrician, will will will know, and it's probably gonna be secret sauce anyway.
Speaker:But you can think about one that has already been proven to be highly correlative, and that's called conscientiousness.
Speaker:It's highly correlated with job success.
Speaker:So cheers.
Speaker:If you have some conscientiousness, you may be successful, but it's only one trait.
Speaker:1.
Speaker:Just one of 50 or 80 that makes up the right person for that job.
Speaker:So that's what we're up to.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:So many thoughts.
Speaker:I I'm I'm trying to write down and the like 80%, 80%.
Speaker:I'm like what would that do to the 80% who have this wealth of skills and knowledge and passion and all of that who didn't make it through the door.
Speaker:What would happen to this person who somehow was able to fit in, go through the interview, mask, and and then make it through the door and not being able to sustain because how long does masking even sustain?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:It doesn't work.
Speaker:Or people who've tried to, like, play the politics and climbed up the ladder, not being themselves.
Speaker:What what would happen to them?
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So I'm I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker:The mental health aspect of of this is is heartbreaking.
Speaker:Really.
Speaker:And the consciousness, as you said, eventually, that's what it comes down to.
Speaker:It does not matter what you are, who you are, but are you doing it from your heart?
Speaker:And is the heart pure?
Speaker:And and that and and is that so if we just trust our heart, right, and and operate everything from our heart in our own way, it would be a beautiful place.
Speaker:But why are people relying on scripts or these formulas to get through the door or climb up the ladder and is that giving them satisfaction in the end?
Speaker:All these materialistic things, all these things that society values isn't really giving you that inner peace because I'm very passionate about inner peace as well.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so the second you said consciousness, I'm like, okay.
Speaker:Are we going there?
Speaker:I I love that.
Speaker:I thank you for sharing all of that And the 80% and mental health, we need to change that.
Speaker:So this planet isn't built for autistic people, and nor is it built for ADHDers or dyslexics or any other neurodivergency.
Speaker:But imagine so we, autistics, make up somewhere between 3 5%.
Speaker:The the percentage keeps growing, and there are some really interesting and and valid reasons for that.
Speaker:We just awareness is the number one reason.
Speaker:The percentage of identified autistic people is growing, 3 to 5%.
Speaker:Now imagine best way to reason about this is to imagine that you find yourself on another planet, and that's exactly what we're talking about here.
Speaker:You're on a planet not built for you, and you're on this other planet with these aliens.
Speaker:And this is a planet of weird creatures from, let's say, a few other planets, a few other maybe even a few other solar systems, but they've never seen a human before.
Speaker:And everyone who looks at you is like, what's wrong with you?
Speaker:Let's just ignore what these other beings, how they show up, whether they ooze down the street or whether they, you know, fly because they have that ability.
Speaker:Let's ignore that and just say that you're so different, and they think there's something really wrong with you.
Speaker:And so there's a stigma around you.
Speaker:And maybe there are a few other humans on the planet, maybe a 1,000, but it's kinda rare to to see them, especially one like you.
Speaker:Making friends is going to be challenging.
Speaker:Communication is going to be challenging.
Speaker:Socialization, confidence, that's so key to get a job, isn't it?
Speaker:So key.
Speaker:So for the 80%, confidence is a challenge.
Speaker:Therefore, anxiety is going to be a challenge.
Speaker:And what happens when you get turned down again and again and again?
Speaker:Depression.
Speaker:I'm worthless.
Speaker:Why am I here?
Speaker:And, you know, there's a statistic that I'm not gonna quote because it's it honestly would bring too many emotions to my chest about suicide that is sad that, you know, autistic people commit suicide at much higher rates.
Speaker:And so when you're on a planet where you are struggling and you're playing video games in your parents' basement because that's all you've got, yes.
Speaker:That's about 70% of autistic people are obsessed with video games, and that's yet another reason why it makes so much sense to evaluate them with a video game.
Speaker:But just wait.
Speaker:There's definitely more because when we grow up, this video game that's really not a video game in the normal sense of it.
Speaker:It's really just a series of mysteries and puzzles, as I said, and exploration.
Speaker:Exploring some islands a little bit like Myst, if you're familiar with that video game from way, way, way back.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:So neurotypicals can play it too.
Speaker:We're not we're not gonna say, hey.
Speaker:Are you autistic?
Speaker:No?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Then the game quits.
Speaker:Ow.
Speaker:We're not even going to ask you if you're autistic, but we're going to create the game with cohorts of autistic people because we believe that these people should be put to work, that they should find entrepreneurial opportunities, contract opportunities, whatever their their opportunity is.
Speaker:With that said, there's nothing stopping the world from engaging with the video game, learning what your cognitive strengths are, and then optionally turning on the option to share my data such that I can be presented with opportunities.
Speaker:If I say no, I can play the thing and just learn what my strengths are and how those are correlated with certain jobs.
Speaker:How cool is that?
Speaker:That's cool even if you don't want to use it to get a job.
Speaker:You definitely need more ways to kind of measure executive function and cognitive abilities.
Speaker:There's a severe lack of you know, there's a couple decent paper tests, but, you know, they're not exactly all that robust or engaging.
Speaker:And there's some good ones I I do recommend, but and then it's also at the end, like and then you tally up everything yourself, which isn't really that great for a neurodivergent to do, by the way, because then you're just second guessing yourself as you're rating yourself, and you're never
Speaker:judge yourself.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You're never gonna get an exact piece of data from that because I'm incapable of doing it.
Speaker:I'm just not going to.
Speaker:I'm gonna go like, oh, well, do I really want to award myself that number?
Speaker:I don't think I do.
Speaker:As you're you're touching on something, a topic that I'm being kind of interested in deep diving as of late, which is like the double empathy problem and the the in the mismarking of social incompatibility because it's not in social incompatibility necessarily.
Speaker:It's it it goes back to that double empathy.
Speaker:It's the 2 magnets pushing against each other, you know, instead of attracting each other is what it comes down to.
Speaker:It's not that we have an inability to communicate or get along in an environment.
Speaker:It's also comes to the lack of other people wanting to meet us in the middle to understand.
Speaker:It's it's why we get along great with other neurodivergence, you know, and that's right.
Speaker:And and that actually extends to more than just, you know, allistic versus autistic kind of thing.
Speaker:That and that's why I don't like you mentioned the behavioral tests and why I I don't care for them is they specifically, they lack context.
Speaker:They do
Speaker:not take context into account.
Speaker:And that Precisely.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And it all boils down always to a form of empathy.
Speaker:And empathy isn't just going like, oh, I feel what you feel.
Speaker:That's it is also recognizing this person has this kind of experience that may inform these other aspects about their lives and Right on the nose.
Speaker:And there are and you can you can tailor these things to encompass the whole of an individual and all of that context and how, you know, you you I could take a test if I was in an environment with too bright of lights.
Speaker:That's gonna affect how I'm performing on the test.
Speaker:That's gonna affect my outward behavior.
Speaker:And, also, I'm probably going to get frustrated at myself for affecting my behavior, which is then going to honestly give probably some untoward behavior outwardly to the people around me, which which often happens.
Speaker:That's why I think it's great to hear that you're going out of your way to build, like, systems of empathy and empathy in the workplace and particularly empathy in the hiring process.
Speaker:It goes beyond the hiring process.
Speaker:It has to.
Speaker:It has to go into the team because hiring, if you just consider that to be a front door and, you know, you have people coming to that front door and saying, what are you selling?
Speaker:I don't know if I want any of that.
Speaker:Maybe I do.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You seem kind of like one of us, like many of us.
Speaker:You're a culture fit.
Speaker:Don't get me started on culture fit.
Speaker:Because if there are no, you know, level 2 autistic support people in the team, then that person's gonna get rejected at that front door all day long.
Speaker:But if there are a lot of them, Vonnie, and you're just like one of us.
Speaker:So culture fit is is a challenge because human biases.
Speaker:Culture add is the way to think about it.
Speaker:With that said, how do you create psychologically safe teams where autistics thrive?
Speaker:That's the whole other problem that multiple of our partners are helping companies address.
Speaker:So when we engage with a client, we would like them to work with not just us, but with our partners to help them create psychologically safe spaces for autistic people.
Speaker:In addition, there's the neurodiversity support model that says that not one person, I e a person's manager, but 5 people should support every neurodivergent employee.
Speaker:5.
Speaker:And they are, according to Stanford and by the way, we at Oticon sort of independently arrived at these same 5 coincidence?
Speaker:I think not.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So 5 people, it's your supervisor.
Speaker:It's a job coach who helps with executive function, interpretation, you know, because translation between neurotypical and autistic is sometimes a challenge for the autistic person and sometimes a challenge in the other direction.
Speaker:This is the double empathy problem.
Speaker:Quick segue to one of the most in interesting studies about autistics and nonautistics and what what are some of the differences.
Speaker:This study proved that autistic people communicate just as effectively as non autistic people.
Speaker:It proved it.
Speaker:How did they prove it?
Speaker:Using the telephone game, of all things, where you line up a line of 50 autistic people, and they transmit a message.
Speaker:So you're involved in both listening and speaking, unless you're the first or the last person, of course.
Speaker:50 autistics, 50 not autistics.
Speaker:Statistically, they performed the same, proving beyond the shadow of a doubt, maybe, that autistics communicate just as effectively as nonautistics.
Speaker:But then they did a third experiment.
Speaker:Intermix.
Speaker:Not autistic, autistic.
Speaker:Not autistic, autistic.
Speaker:Intermix all the way to 50.
Speaker:Same test.
Speaker:It performed horribly.
Speaker:What is it about saying a few words that creates a double empathy problem?
Speaker:Well, they're standing next to each other, and they're getting vibes.
Speaker:They're getting energy.
Speaker:They're getting whatever it is, it's communication differences.
Speaker:It's how you show up differences.
Speaker:It's even how you shake hands with each other.
Speaker:Autistic people shake hands differently than non autistic people, generally speaking.
Speaker:And when you generalize, you you have exceptions.
Speaker:With that said, that group performed terribly, essentially proving this experiment.
Speaker:This one experiment proves 2 things.
Speaker:1, autistic people do not have communication problems.
Speaker:They have communication differences.
Speaker:And 2, the double empathy problem is scientifically true.
Speaker:No matter how you think about it or reason about it or use psychometrics to model it, it's just true.
Speaker:And especially neurodivergence pick up on the tiniest of details when it comes to other people, when it when it comes to communication.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I will be completely thrown off if I meet someone, and I just for some reason, the tone of their voice when they say hello throws me off.
Speaker:And then I have no idea what they're saying for about 30 seconds because I'm trying to how do I adjust how I'm speaking so I can match them?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:It
Speaker:Or it's people who lie a lot.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That just I can't.
Speaker:I don't know how to interact.
Speaker:I just suddenly I I'm so uncomfortable with a person who lies frequently, and it part of it is because I am my values.
Speaker:If you Google autistic identity hypothesis or autistic identity theory, I don't know whether it's a hypothesis or a theory.
Speaker:Doesn't matter.
Speaker:It's the same thing.
Speaker:Autistic people are their values.
Speaker:So when people violate my value of honesty and integrity, I just my skin starts to crawl.
Speaker:I feel very uncomfortable, and I just kinda wanna exit the conversation.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Because I am my values.
Speaker:That my identity is my values.
Speaker:Whereas the theory says or hypothesis says that for non autistic people, they their identity is their relationships.
Speaker:So member of this church, member of this family, member of this company, member of this club, the that's their identity.
Speaker:And they're if you violate their identity, you're violating, you know, their true self.
Speaker:But for autistics, it's our values.
Speaker:So, like, nonjudgmentalism for me.
Speaker:Highest of high value.
Speaker:Love.
Speaker:Specifically, connect those words, nonjudgmental and love.
Speaker:Maybe that's my favorite two words connected together.
Speaker:Anyway, those are my highest values.
Speaker:And right underneath that, you know, there's some other values too.
Speaker:And if I violate those, then I feel gross and disgusting.
Speaker:And if other people violate them, I just don't wanna be around them.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Shut down.
Speaker:I was, just last night, I was running a autistic support group, and I was talking about we were talking about socialization.
Speaker:And I was I was discussing that, like, how I tend to, like, explore other people whenever I'm, like, looking for a potential relationship or friendship or or whatever else is I explore their values.
Speaker:While, you know, allistics, neurotypicals, they tend to go just the, you know, the basic surface level stuff, and then it's it's like friendship.
Speaker:You know, I almost view it as, like, friendship through attrition where it just, like, through sheer interaction, we eventually start hanging out.
Speaker:But for me, and I I I feel like generally with all with neurodivergence, is we want to explore the other person's values.
Speaker:It's why a lot of times we get looked at kind of cross eyed because we're asking, like, super deep questions very quickly whenever we meet somebody.
Speaker:But it's because we want to explore that.
Speaker:We wanna see, like, hey.
Speaker:I'm gonna be very upfront about, like, the things that I've dealt with in life, and I want you to do the same because I wanna see if our values match up.
Speaker:I wanna see your reaction to things.
Speaker:I wanna see I wanna feel how you feel very deeply.
Speaker:And it's that is also, you know, going once again back to the double empathy problem is, like, when we try to how make friends the way neurotypicals make friends, and it doesn't it doesn't work.
Speaker:And we always keep seeing, like, we're not doing anything, but we keep getting left behind.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:And that definitely happens a lot at workplaces with coworkers, where you try to do the neurotypical way of navigating an office or any kind of workspace and you find yourself hitting these invisible roadblocks where you
Speaker:A glass ceiling.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You're not you're not really you can't even say, like, oh, I'm not aware of what I'm doing wrong because you're not doing anything wrong.
Speaker:You're just you know, the it is a cliche analogy that I will use over and over again, but it it's because it works.
Speaker:It's square peg ground hole.
Speaker:It's all it ever boils down to.
Speaker:It's a difference in that glass ceiling.
Speaker:You can see through it, and you think there's something there, but you just keep bunking.
Speaker:And you don't even hear the hollow, you know, phone that that ring because it's not literally a glass ceiling where you're hearing glass tings, but you just you don't know why you can't rise and be and grow in in directions that you'd like to.
Speaker:I got promoted 5 times at eBay and PayPal, and I just kept getting promoted.
Speaker:And I'm like, why are you doing this to me?
Speaker:I I wasn't doing anything.
Speaker:I was just being me.
Speaker:I just kept getting promoted.
Speaker:But then I didn't know why I wasn't being promoted anymore.
Speaker:Years went by more than the typical 2 or 3, and now it's 5 and then 6 and then 7.
Speaker:And what am I doing wrong?
Speaker:Why am I not getting promoted again?
Speaker:And here you go.
Speaker:This is, of course, the answer.
Speaker:I didn't socialize in the same ways.
Speaker:I needed to go to the bar or go play golf or I needed with VPs and, you know, that level of people, I needed to do that.
Speaker:I needed them to know who I was.
Speaker:I needed to socialize differently.
Speaker:I needed to socialize with people that I don't really relate to, like the cigar you know, the smoke filled room, you know, cigar people, the people who are in the good old boys club.
Speaker:I I don't know how to socialize with those people, and I don't want to.
Speaker:So, of course, I'm never gonna be promoted.
Speaker:If I can't impress those people and have them say, yeah.
Speaker:He's one of us.
Speaker:He needs to be promoted.
Speaker:Then, yeah, I had my glass ceiling.
Speaker:Comes down to values.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It it really irrespective of whether you're neurotypical, neurodivergent, it does not matter.
Speaker:It's all about values and speaking the truth, authenticity.
Speaker:And that's what I keep calling that for because because we are all trying to fit in.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Somehow, because I don't know who made these rules because these are the rules of the society if you want to accomplish certain things.
Speaker:And that takes away from that authenticity and that purity.
Speaker:So what we really need to work on is that going inwards, which is what that which is what Spark launch is all about, is finding that spark in us and that light because we all have it.
Speaker:It does not matter.
Speaker:We all have that.
Speaker:And once yeah, and start undoing the parts that that don't align to your authenticity because it's not serving you.
Speaker:It is not doing any good.
Speaker:If you have somehow got those promotions by by putting on a certain costume, it's gonna make you feel uncomfortable.
Speaker:And in fact, it might not even show your true strength.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because they're all hidden inside.
Speaker:And I do know speaking to a lot of people, it manifests into mental health and physical health problems.
Speaker:Just trying to be somebody who you're not.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And and really, who are we trying to impress?
Speaker:Because nobody cares.
Speaker:Really.
Speaker:I didn't know how to be inauthentic was my problem.
Speaker:So I got promoted 5 times to this certain point by being authentic and being who I am.
Speaker:But I have such a strong integrity value that I I couldn't be that person that would get promoted one more time.
Speaker:I just it it would go against who I am.
Speaker:I also couldn't during that period of time where I I was thriving and being promoted and so on and being seen as, you know, a person going from good to great.
Speaker:During that time, I had to reject opportunities to go to Google pre IPO.
Speaker:I knew that I'd be fabulously wealthy by doing it, but I had what I wanted.
Speaker:I had my integrity.
Speaker:I had some good friendships.
Speaker:I had a lot of people who needed me and trusted me.
Speaker:I had opportunity.
Speaker:I had learning and growing because that's so important to me.
Speaker:All of my values were aligned at eBay, and my friend said, yeah.
Speaker:Come to Google.
Speaker:I can't tell you why.
Speaker:Like, okay.
Speaker:You just told me why.
Speaker:You're gonna IPO soon.
Speaker:Come to Google now.
Speaker:You have to come now.
Speaker:Anyway, I rejected, you know, the typical thing that people would do.
Speaker:No chase money.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:Because values.
Speaker:I don't value money or what it says to other people.
Speaker:I drive this car.
Speaker:I have this thing.
Speaker:I have this size house.
Speaker:I don't value any of those things, at least not then.
Speaker:Now I'm realizing that money as a form of energy and create such positive good in the world.
Speaker:So I'm investing in this company, Haystack Unlimited, where if you look in the haystack, there are unlimited needles, but you're not looking in the haystack is the problem.
Speaker:You're looking in plain sight for talent.
Speaker:That's our the origin of our name, Haystack Unlimited.
Speaker:Investing in the company, sweat equity, I'm not being paid by the company, but it's all wrapped up in my life purpose of changing the game, eliminating unconscious bias and unconscious human and unconscious machine bias, both types, eliminate all of them, and autistics and people with face tattoos and gay and trans, you know, and all the other things, everyone will thrive in a psychologically safe space if we have a social movement that will start in early 2026 and this way of thinking about blind recruiting in a whole new way.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:I'm sort of like Henry Ford saying, what do you want?
Speaker:And the person who's, like, looking at his horse says, I want it to go faster.
Speaker:I want a faster horse, damn it.
Speaker:And Henry Ford says, I've got something for you.
Speaker:And dude's like, what the hell is that?
Speaker:That's exactly what the world is gonna be saying when we say we have a whole new way to assess talent, and you don't even need your your staff to do any interviews and take their time away from their precious day, their work, their actual productivity, getting shit done.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:That's important.
Speaker:You take them away from that and ask them to interview, and what you're really saying is, I don't really care about 80% of the autistic population.
Speaker:I want them to stay away from us.
Speaker:That's what you're saying.
Speaker:They don't belong here?
Speaker:I just want to highlight one thing that came to me is that a lot of your autistic ADHD gifts are not going to get activated when you're not doing what you're passionate about.
Speaker:What you love.
Speaker:What you love to do.
Speaker:Once again
Speaker:And that's the energy we need to put out there.
Speaker:Love.
Speaker:Love for ourselves first.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Love what we're doing.
Speaker:Nonjudgmental love.
Speaker:Absolutely not.
Speaker:Judgmental love.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because God only love these people.
Speaker:Oh, no.
Speaker:It's true.
Speaker:Love.
Speaker:True true love is nonjudgmental.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:So so we had to get to that purity within ourselves and Yes, please.
Speaker:Realign.
Speaker:So really, the problem is something else.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:If you really get deeper and deeper, are you, first of all, doing things that you're passionate about?
Speaker:And for me with ADHD, with poor working memory, I would not be speaking like this if I was relying on my memory because I that was my trauma from school, a rope memorization.
Speaker:For me, over a period of time, I've been realigning to my interest and passion, and it's magical because first of all, it doesn't feel like work.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It what a Right.
Speaker:Keeps loving.
Speaker:I I love talking to you.
Speaker:My flow is so key.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The flow is key.
Speaker:And then all of those things will get activated.
Speaker:Your problem solving skills, creativity, out of box thinking are all activated when you are doing things that you're passionate about because that's how you create in this world, especially with AI taking over your left brain.
Speaker:You need these creative people to take humanity forward.
Speaker:In my mind, it isn't AI taking over.
Speaker:It's humans learning how to trust AI.
Speaker:It's hard.
Speaker:It's hard to learn how to trust it and when to trust it and when to doubt it.
Speaker:You just have to know it.
Speaker:You just have to dig in and really learn, how can this help me?
Speaker:How can this help me think differently about the job I do?
Speaker:So I was a software engineer in the 19 nineties.
Speaker:Was there an AI thing that helped me write code?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:And so transitioning from I am a person who is a creative systems thinker that can write beautiful code myself, and that's my craft.
Speaker:I have to nowadays, if I write code as a CTO, which I love too, so yes.
Speaker:Now it's a whole other ballgame.
Speaker:The machine is helping me reason and helping me with aspects of my executive function difficulties because I regularly have what I call brain farts.
Speaker:Like, oh, why would why did I think that?
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:Is that gonna work?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:That doesn't work either because I forgot about this other thing as a executive function.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Short, small working memory, strong systems memory.
Speaker:Like, I can still probably put on a big whiteboard PayPal's entire architecture.
Speaker:That's strong systems and, like, bigger bigger structural connectivity.
Speaker:I have strong memory in that way.
Speaker:But working memory, remembering that, oh, yeah, I need cream for my coffee.
Speaker:I forgot about that.
Speaker:Now I have to go back to the refrigerator.
Speaker:That's challenging.
Speaker:So the machine can help me crank out code so much faster, and so I'm embracing it as a way of being in my work that helps me, and I can critically think about whether the machine did it right or not, and sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker:I I love AI for that.
Speaker:I use it all the time, and it's that friend, the buddy, right, that I
Speaker:can Yes.
Speaker:Talk.
Speaker:All my crazy thoughts, I could bounce off.
Speaker:There's no doubt about that, but we need to be on top of it.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:That That's right.
Speaker:That that's what will keep us going because it it'll especially takes care of all the logical, the executive functioning, love love AI for that.
Speaker:It it bridges the gap so beautifully.
Speaker:It's a godsend for dyslexics.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:I've talked to 4 or 5 dyslexics about this topic, and every one of them sing the praises.
Speaker:If if AI weren't here, if, like, chatbots specifically weren't here and also other AI that turns text into speech, they're like, without these things, I used to be so disabled.
Speaker:Reading was such an arduous chore.
Speaker:Writing was such a crappy I just hated hated hated every aspect of writing and the judgmentalism I've received from teachers and judgmentalism from, you know, managers and teammates because I typed something wrong or I read something wrong, thought it was a different word, whatever.
Speaker:They're like, it it has changed my whole life, and they're just every single one of these four people that I know.
Speaker:It it it has greatly increased my ability to be productive, and I don't you know, for for all the things we get wrapped up with in the AI conversation, and we we the overall conversation tends to focus on, obviously, the most importantly, the negative aspects, which is the way it's being used for creative purposes that are unnecessary, you know, for, like, filmmaking and art and all these other things.
Speaker:But when we talk about that, we we're putting the focus there as if that's the only purpose it has.
Speaker:And it has so much just in fact, I can use it to help with issues with demand avoidance.
Speaker:It gives me someone to talk to whenever I'm figuring things out, so I'm not stuck in my head.
Speaker:You know, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm using it because because, like, oh, I need to write a short story.
Speaker:So I'm gonna, like, pop in the the plot summary into like, I'm not gonna do that, but it can help me if I get stuck or if I just need to, like, think of some ideas or do some quick research or even working on, like, the show notes for this podcast.
Speaker:It can help me, like, get my brain moving a little bit to, like,
Speaker:oh, what's some what
Speaker:are some interesting things I could, like, include into this or, you know, things like that.
Speaker:It is a massive, massive piece of assistance, and I have dyscalculia.
Speaker:And it is a massive help for for that being able to just, like, okay.
Speaker:Instead of me trying to figure out something just to, like, ask it a quick question or, like, can you just explain I need this math thing explained to me for, like, the 8th time this week.
Speaker:Could you just do it again for me?
Speaker:You know, that is a big help.
Speaker:Indeed.
Speaker:So before we wrap up, I wanted to ask, like, kind of encompassing all this, and I wanna really have you back on the show, by the way, because I think we could talk about this specific topic forever.
Speaker:It once again, it is one of the biggest topics in regards to neurodivergency that people struggle with and people have.
Speaker:But what what does the role of neurodivergers in the workplace evolve into the future in your mind?
Speaker:So Simon Baron Cohen is an interesting PhD, incredible human being who has been doing autism related research for 20 or 30 years.
Speaker:And his thinking has evolved a lot, and he's made a lot of mistakes.
Speaker:And a lot of people would say, oh, Simon Baron Cohen, that guy is an idiot.
Speaker:He said this, this, this, this about autistic people back in the day.
Speaker:Yeah?
Speaker:But he noticed some patterns.
Speaker:He noticed some interesting differences in these children he was studying, and most of them were either level 2 or 3 support.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:So maybe, you know, a lot of them simply will never live independently, will never have independent work to even work at all.
Speaker:They'll need group supported sort of employment.
Speaker:So he studied a lot of those levels of disability, and he didn't so much study other levels of disability because those autistics at the time in 19 nineties were invisible to this planet.
Speaker:Like me.
Speaker:Hi.
Speaker:I was in the 19 nineties, and I was autistic, and nobody had any clue, including Simon Baron Cohen.
Speaker:He wasn't looking at that as being autistic.
Speaker:But now we have a different understanding of what it means to be autistic and what those other developmental differences are.
Speaker:And some of those are intellectual differences, And there is no correlation between intelligence and autism.
Speaker:So when you have people at the bottom, you know, 30% of intelligence, of course, they're going to be less capable in some ways, but more capable again than others.
Speaker:So with that said, he made a lot of mistakes.
Speaker:But the thing that I think is the biggest takeaway, maybe from this whole podcast, is that he finally arrived in his latest book at this idea that the autistic ADHDers are the ones but I think he presents it really just from the autistic perspective, ignoring ADHD, but I think it's so important to bring it in.
Speaker:Pretty much all of the inventors of all time were autistic.
Speaker:All of them.
Speaker:I mean, it's hard to point to an inventor who wasn't.
Speaker:The biggest scientific advances, the biggest musical advances.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Mozart, famous I mean, if you look at his life story, like, oh, yeah.
Speaker:That guy was autistic ADHD all the way, all day long.
Speaker:Leonardo da Vinci, the inventor of the Python programming language.
Speaker:You know, the list goes on and on.
Speaker:It's not just Elon Musk and me.
Speaker:It's a whole lot of inventors and people who, you know, as a matter of just being human, nonlinear think and invent stuff just as a matter of breathing.
Speaker:So it takes thinking differently.
Speaker:It takes a neurodivergence by definition to innovate and invent.
Speaker:So to solve the world's biggest problems, you have to think about it differently.
Speaker:It's a social problem, and it's a it's a systems and framework and software helping us problem.
Speaker:You have to think different in in the words of Steve Jobs, a famous neurodivergent.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Another important aspect is it's also pharmaceutical.
Speaker:All of it is ruled.
Speaker:At times.
Speaker:At yeah.
Speaker:And so I'm not I mean, everybody has their reason.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:But a lot of my belief is that a lot of things can be solved by understanding who we are and why are we here, what are we trying to do and realigning and overcome some of the social societal traumas that we are catering to because nobody cares.
Speaker:And go back to that authenticity because I'm telling you the problems are gonna go away.
Speaker:Lack of focus, we are actually trying to force people to focus on things that they don't enjoy.
Speaker:Do we really wanna be in a round hole when we're a square peg?
Speaker:Borrow Mike's phrase.
Speaker:Why do we really wanna be in that round hole?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In a psychologically unsafe team, in a workplace that you don't believe in with people who constantly violate your values.
Speaker:Those these liars, for example.
Speaker:Not everyone is a, you know, constant everyday liar, but I've met those people.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, you know, whether they have narcissistic personality disorder or they're a sociopath or they're, you know, a psychopath you know, what whatever they are, why are we trying to fit ourselves into that round hole?
Speaker:We have to ask ourself that question and then realign with what you're talking about, this nonjudgmental love value, and say, I need to first look inwards for that nonjudgmental love.
Speaker:Do I actually nonjudgmentally, I have this flaw and this and this flaw.
Speaker:I can't do this, and I can't no.
Speaker:Stop that.
Speaker:Put that away for a minute.
Speaker:It'll come back.
Speaker:Trust me.
Speaker:Those neural pathways don't just get erased as much as you might want them to.
Speaker:And interestingly, it is possible to erase them through certain interesting techniques, some hyperventilation and some, yeah, ask your therapist about these.
Speaker:It helped me get rid of some negative thinking, some negative self talk.
Speaker:And when it comes to positive self talk, how do you know what those traits are, your strengths?
Speaker:That's part of what our video game is hoping to surface, but also from a meditation going inside, understanding who I am and what I love to do and what I love to be.
Speaker:Where is that square hole that I, as a square peg, will fit?
Speaker:And I found my people at Haystack where I think with maybe one exception, we're all neurodivergent, and we just sing the same same tune in the same with with the same notes.
Speaker:It's amazing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Don't don't mourn the fact you don't fit into the round hole.
Speaker:Celebrate the fact you don't have to fit into the round hole.
Speaker:Is that's that's the way to reframe it.
Speaker:Thank you, Mark, for for coming on and telling us about everything.
Speaker:How can people find out more about you and your company?
Speaker:It's a pleasure and an honor, and I'd be happy to do it again.
Speaker:You can find us on LinkedIn.
Speaker:Just search Haystack Unlimited.
Speaker:You can find me on LinkedIn, Mark Fister.
Speaker:I think I show up as the first person in most people's searches as Mark Fister, www.linkedin.com/in/markfister.
Speaker:You can click on my company logo to find Haystack Unlimited as well.
Speaker:Our website right now is being revamped, so that's why I'm not mentioning the website.
Speaker:Though by the time listeners listen to this, it might be done, haystackhub.com
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I'll be sure to include all that in the show notes for anyone listening who just wants to easily go there.
Speaker:And, of course, you can find all of the links for this podcast and where to find Chaya and I.
Speaker:Spark launches on Instagram @the_sparklaunch.
Speaker:I'm there @followshisghost, and, of course, we're all on LinkedIn and all that, and sparklaunchpodcast.com is the website.
Speaker:Thanks again, Mark, for joining us.
Speaker:It has been a pleasure, and we will see you all next time.
