Chaya and Mike chat with Craig Maier, a dedicated ADHD Coach at Spark Launch, who shares his story of alienation and bullying while growing up neurodivergent in a small town. Craig details how these negative experiences aid in nurturing his son's own neurodivergence, provides some jaw-dropping insights into the differences between the U.S. and German education systems, and how we can better support students on the spectrum.
Chaya and Mike chat with Craig Maier, a dedicated ADHD Coach at Spark Launch, who shares his story of alienation and bullying while growing up neurodivergent in a small town. Craig details how these negative experiences aid in nurturing his son's own neurodivergence, provides some jaw-dropping insights into the differences between the U.S. and German education systems, and how we can better support students on the spectrum.
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About Craig Maier:
A former university professor with a doctorate in interpersonal, organizational, and ethical communication, Craig is a coach certified by the International Coaching Federation and a Parent Consultant for ADHD certified by the Institute for Integrative Learning Therapy and Advanced Education in Germany, and also holds certifications in coaching neurodivergent learners and trauma-informed and body-oriented coaching.
He has transformed his experiences and cultivated knowledge into a powerful coaching approach, one which emphasizes and recognizes the individual, first and foremost.
Connect with Craig:
[Mike] [32.77s] Hello there.
[Mike] [33.73s] I'm Mike.
[Chaya] [34.45s] I'm Chaya.
[Chaya] [35.72s] And today, we have a very special guest, Craig Maier.
[Chaya] [41.08s] And Craig is a coach at Spark Launch, and he believes in the philosophy of Spark Launch that we all have unique strengths and gifts within us.
[Chaya] [53.51s] And once we tap into those gifts and strengths and start living in those gifts and strengths and also learn skills that we don't have to support those gifts and skills.
[Chaya] [65.78s] We will be not just living, we will be thriving.
[Chaya] [71.40s] And also, Craig has a very interesting background.
[Chaya] [75.24s] He is a former university professor and also a fellow neurodivergent individual himself.
[Chaya] [83.98s] And he also is a parent of a neurodivergent child.
[Chaya] [89.00s] Welcome, Craig.
[Craig Maier] [89.88s] Welcome.
[Craig Maier] [90.28s] It's great to be here.
[Craig Maier] [91.40s] Thank you.
[Chaya] [92.44s] So, Craig, tell us about your background.
[Chaya] [96.27s] We can dive into whatever part you wanna share.
[Chaya] [100.74s] I'm very curious about your childhood as a neurodivergent child, not knowing what the terminology or the the characteristics.
[Chaya] [112.35s] How how was your experience?
[Craig Maier] [114.97s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [115.45s] Thank you.
[Craig Maier] [116.58s] That's that's a big question.
[Craig Maier] [118.17s] I think maybe what we could do is tell you about a little bit where I'm from.
[Craig Maier] [122.50s] I am from a small town up in the middle of nowhere up above north of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
[Craig Maier] [130.75s] So I'm from Western Pennsylvania, United States.
[Craig Maier] [134.87s] And, yeah, I I I grew up there.
[Craig Maier] [136.87s] I moved to Pittsburgh, and now I'm living in Germany.
[Craig Maier] [139.91s] And I think we might be talking a little bit about that later on.
[Craig Maier] [142.99s] But it's really interesting thinking about what it means to be neurodivergent because that's not something that people talked about when I was young.
[Craig Maier] [156.19s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [156.51s] And that's the and that's something that only people are really they're they're only really talking about now.
[Craig Maier] [160.64s] And I grew up in the the seventies eighties.
[Craig Maier] [165.20s] And I always knew that something was a little bit different about me.
[Craig Maier] [172.81s] I didn't know what that was, that feeling of just being, you know, an alien.
[Craig Maier] [178.31s] You know, that I think that's feeling like an alien basically where I was.
[Craig Maier] [182.63s] My and maybe I could also talk a little bit about the specific my specific type of neurodivergence.
[Craig Maier] [189.71s] So I although I'm doing a lot of work in the ADHD area right now, I my I'm more on the side of being of of gifted with autistic traits.
[Craig Maier] [203.18s] So what that meant for me growing up, well, again, I was just a little bit different than everyone else in my community.
[Craig Maier] [214.46s] I think that growing up and being where I was, it was it's first of all, I did very, very well in school.
[Craig Maier] [222.54s] I was very fit because there was there's things about school that really interested me.
[Craig Maier] [226.22s] I was very interested in math.
[Craig Maier] [227.50s] I I was very interested in history.
[Craig Maier] [229.21s] You know, I had very deep and abiding passions, but I was really I was very different.
[Craig Maier] [236.54s] I talk about, you know, asynchronous development.
[Craig Maier] [238.71s] I was a lot farther ahead than my peers.
[Craig Maier] [242.96s] And that really took a toll on me in terms of bullying, not only from the kids in my class, but also even from adults.
[Craig Maier] [253.46s] It was it was a very challenging space be because of the area that I was in, you know, the you know, people really didn't know exactly what to do with me, and I didn't know what to do with myself.
[Craig Maier] [265.59s] And I internalized quite a bit of that.
[Chaya] [268.45s] So you said alien.
[Chaya] [269.89s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [270.30s] Right?
[Chaya] [270.54s] So how did you feel you were different from the rest of the crowd?
[Craig Maier] [275.57s] Wow.
[Craig Maier] [275.89s] That's I think that it's really hard to articulate that because that this was something that I just basically knew.
[Craig Maier] [285.46s] I knew instinctively that I was maybe too much for a lot of the people around me in terms of my interests, my intensity level.
[Craig Maier] [297.43s] You know, I I I knew that.
[Craig Maier] [299.43s] At the same time, I think that I was really I was very used to very early on keeping my own company.
[Craig Maier] [308.12s] So I was very good at playing by myself, right?
[Craig Maier] [313.72s] Creating my own sorts of narratives, very complex games that I would play with myself.
[Craig Maier] [319.88s] And and and so I because I knew maybe instinctively that there wasn't a lot around me.
[Craig Maier] [326.91s] You know, that the just being able to talk with with with my my peers is also very challenging.
[Craig Maier] [333.23s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [333.74s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [334.13s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [334.53s] It somehow felt you were not understood.
[Chaya] [337.50s] Right?
[Chaya] [338.13s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [338.53s] One of the reasons that I think we learned to be really good at keeping our own company
[Craig Maier] [345.06s] Mhmm.
[Chaya] [345.70s] Internal company.
[Chaya] [347.86s] I I did that a lot as well.
[Chaya] [349.86s] My entire middle school, I spent time by myself.
[Chaya] [353.61s] I didn't have a single friend, and I played with younger children.
[Chaya] [357.93s] And that that was comfortable.
[Chaya] [359.76s] Now if I think back, maybe because they were not judgy, they were innocent, they're pure.
[Chaya] [365.56s] Whereas the girls, it was an all girls school.
[Chaya] [368.20s] They were in groups, and it was a new school.
[Chaya] [370.81s] I totally get what you said.
[Chaya] [373.06s] And did it bother you being alone?
[Craig Maier] [375.77s] You know, I think on one level, I think it did.
[Craig Maier] [379.90s] I think that I did feel quite lonely, but I also feel that sometimes the being with other people, and this might get into some of the autistic traits, right?
[Craig Maier] [391.21s] Being with other people is also very stressful.
[Craig Maier] [393.13s] It wasn't that I was frightened of being with other people.
[Craig Maier] [395.58s] It was just there was just so much to to process and to be with other people that I was kinda comfortable being by myself.
[Craig Maier] [404.71s] I mean, and and I think perhaps because of the environment I was in that, you know, nobody really noticed that.
[Craig Maier] [412.61s] That seemed that was normal to everyone around me that I would be, you know, even going into high school, you know, not having met many people who I would find friends, you know, that I would consider friends.
[Craig Maier] [426.31s] I mean, I I had people I hung out with, people I might have you know, I think I was very involved in music and so forth.
[Craig Maier] [433.23s] So I I I had that sort of social relationships.
[Craig Maier] [437.32s] But in terms of really connecting with other people and feeling safe with other people, I really didn't have that, you know?
[Craig Maier] [445.60s] And Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [446.48s] But for me, that felt normal and I felt okay.
[Craig Maier] [449.89s] But it also, I think that opens up a lot of challenges later on because if you're used to taking your own counsel, if you're used to TVing your own company, you know, you deprive yourself of not only just social connection, but also in in terms of, you know, information about, you know, what what you can do as a human being, as a grown up human being, you know, the the the information, those types of social connections that could help launch you into into a successful adult.
[Craig Maier] [482.32s] And I really didn't I didn't have that.
[Craig Maier] [484.72s] Those were resources that I didn't have, that I probably should've.
[Craig Maier] [488.41s] I I I I looking back, I really needed to have been in a position to develop those.
[Craig Maier] [493.45s] And I and I wasn't able to do that until much later.
[Chaya] [496.80s] To the external world, you looked like a lonely child, but internally, there was a whole different world, the universe.
[Craig Maier] [505.94s] Yes.
[Craig Maier] [506.25s] I I think that that's true.
[Craig Maier] [507.62s] And, actually, I might not have looked like a lonely child to the people around me because I was I was a I I did very well in school.
[Craig Maier] [516.70s] I was I did very well in band.
[Craig Maier] [518.54s] I had a lot of, you know, social connections.
[Craig Maier] [521.58s] I think that but at the same time, I think that even in my my later years in in high school, I do think that there maybe that sense of loneliness really began to to come home to me.
[Craig Maier] [534.57s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [534.89s] I remember feeling, you know, maybe 15, 16, 17 years old, very kind of you know, I wasn't depressed, but I was definitely blue.
[Craig Maier] [545.04s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [545.52s] I I there was something that I knew wasn't quite right and a loneliness that I that that was there.
[Craig Maier] [552.59s] And so I, you know, and but I I think that because of just you know, I I think because of the fact that I was doing well in school, that I seem to have a lot of connections with other people, That flew under the radar and no one really asked me about it.
[Craig Maier] [569.86s] And and I which is I I again, I think one of the things that may that draws me to coaching or one of the reasons why I'm really interested in coaching is that I really feel that if someone had had taken the time to talk with me at, you know, 15, 16, you know, and really talk with me, I I think that that would have really changed my life.
[Chaya] [592.88s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [593.36s] You needed someone to listen to you.
[Craig Maier] [595.51s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [596.00s] To the real you.
[Craig Maier] [597.67s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [598.37s] And and yeah.
[Craig Maier] [599.25s] Be because because in terms of trying to figure out because, again, one of the things that was that was a a challenge going through high school was that, I mean, my interests looking back at my interests now, I think these interests were completely normal.
[Craig Maier] [617.25s] But given where I was in the community that I grew up with, again, it was like coming from another planet.
[Craig Maier] [625.68s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [626.73s] So, like, I was really passionate about history, for instance.
[Craig Maier] [630.73s] But in my community, to say that I was interested in history, to say that I was interested in music, that was, oh my gosh.
[Craig Maier] [639.02s] That that's, oh, you're throwing your life away, child.
[Craig Maier] [642.36s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [642.67s] You gotta grow up and major in accounting and do the responsible thing.
[Craig Maier] [647.08s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [647.55s] And and as opposed to having someone say, well, you know, that's really interesting.
[Craig Maier] [651.55s] Let's work with that.
[Craig Maier] [652.87s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [653.19s] What might you be able to do with that?
[Chaya] [655.35s] Just honoring your interest.
[Chaya] [657.99s] Because I think for the adults, and this happens a lot in our community as well.
[Chaya] [663.88s] And the fear sets in of the adult of some some image of their child that Mhmm.
[Chaya] [672.24s] In the future, they would be lonely, they would be poor, they would be in a place where they can't find jobs and things like that, which is a normal human behavior.
[Chaya] [682.68s] I, as a parent, also did that.
[Chaya] [685.25s] And so and then as a result of that, somehow your interests are not honored, the child's interest.
[Craig Maier] [694.05s] Exactly.
[Craig Maier] [694.70s] And just getting back to what you were saying at the very beginning, you know, either there's so much power within those interests.
[Craig Maier] [701.33s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [701.65s] How are we going to work with them instead of instead of saying no to that.
[Craig Maier] [706.97s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [707.69s] And, you know, majoring in history and music, oh my gosh, there's so many things you could do with that.
[Craig Maier] [713.43s] I mean, knowing that now.
[Craig Maier] [714.63s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [714.96s] There's so many things that you can do with that if you have the resources, if you have a plan.
[Craig Maier] [721.43s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [722.39s] That is it's so important.
[Craig Maier] [724.83s] And, actually, the the funny thing is that well, actually, a few things.
[Craig Maier] [728.59s] When I was a freshman in high school as part of the particular pro gifted program I was in, we had to write an extra paper.
[Craig Maier] [738.89s] And I was really frustrated with that because I was like, oh my gosh.
[Craig Maier] [743.21s] I you know, I'm already overworked.
[Craig Maier] [744.73s] To begin with, why are you asking me to write an extra paper?
[Craig Maier] [747.93s] So I decided to to write the longest paper in the in the history of the universe.
[Craig Maier] [756.33s] So what I did is my passion at that point was ancient history.
[Craig Maier] [760.81s] So I decided to write a complete history of the ancient world from the neolithic age to the fall of the Roman empire.
[Craig Maier] [768.85s] It ended up being 62 pages, single spaced.
[Craig Maier] [772.31s] And I and I gave it to them.
[Craig Maier] [774.47s] And I said, here, take that.
[Craig Maier] [776.07s] And and that they they never assigned that.
[Craig Maier] [779.03s] They that that they never made that assignment to anyone else ever again.
[Craig Maier] [782.15s] So I think I I I proved my point.
[Craig Maier] [784.88s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [785.20s] So I I I ended that for other people.
[Craig Maier] [787.67s] But but what's fascinating is because my interest was ancient history, and I started out as a physics major in college because that's what I think was expected of me.
[Craig Maier] [799.15s] And I ended up transferring because I I was thinking about going into music school, but that didn't work out.
[Craig Maier] [806.56s] So I ended up going into I ended up getting a degree in classics.
[Craig Maier] [811.68s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [811.92s] That was my education.
[Craig Maier] [813.89s] And so I ended up ending up doing it.
[Craig Maier] [815.89s] But the problem is is that because of the way that I, you know, I ended up doing that and going through that process, I managed to do what I wanted to do, but I also didn't have the mentoring and the context to either the re again, the resources to do that well.
[Craig Maier] [832.13s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [832.45s] And it's so so again, majoring in classics is I mean, it's it's a really cool thing to study, but you have to be able to have a plan for that.
[Craig Maier] [841.88s] What you know?
[Craig Maier] [843.00s] Okay.
[Craig Maier] [843.80s] Where does this go?
[Craig Maier] [845.24s] What how can you begin to connect that with other things, other types of experiences, and so forth?
[Craig Maier] [850.73s] But but and and again, too, I think that because of, again, many of my autistic traits, I was really secluded in myself.
[Craig Maier] [860.75s] I wasn't reaching out for other people to other people.
[Craig Maier] [863.63s] It, you know, it it it was I was really hyper focused on the coursework.
[Craig Maier] [869.35s] And then when I that's how I graduated, that was that was challenging for me.
[Chaya] [874.84s] So what were the autistic traits that you felt I I
[Craig Maier] [880.60s] the ones that that really come up for me is, I think, the capacity of hyperfocus.
[Craig Maier] [887.36s] I think that there is the really deep commitment to special to to particular interests.
[Craig Maier] [894.57s] I don't like to call them special interests.
[Craig Maier] [896.09s] That's that's what I talk about in the literature.
[Craig Maier] [897.61s] I like to call them just interests because, you know, because it seems if I say it's a special interest, it's like, you know, it seems very condescending.
[Craig Maier] [904.60s] These are my interests, and they're incredibly deep.
[Craig Maier] [906.84s] And I need to be with them and commune with them.
[Craig Maier] [908.92s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [909.39s] A need for structure, a feeling of a real need to again, interpersonal interactions were I mean, they're not.
[Craig Maier] [920.95s] They were challenging enough for me and confusing enough that I that that also was a real that that was a real difficulty for me.
[Craig Maier] [930.36s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [930.76s] Make again, making friends, connecting with other people, being with other other people, and that in in terms of building a social network, building a job network, you know, all that was was quite challenging.
[Craig Maier] [941.87s] So I think those there might be some others, you know, in terms of text sensitivity, other type those things come up.
[Craig Maier] [948.25s] But those are the the the the 4 really big ones that that come up for me.
[Craig Maier] [952.33s] The structure, the the real seclusion, the difficulties with connecting, the interests, you know, that those things were the ones that really came up for me.
[Craig Maier] [966.06s] And and and so, again, that was that's really helpful if you want to become an academic.
[Craig Maier] [974.15s] Right, which is really what I that's what I wanted to settle.
[Craig Maier] [978.39s] I I can, you know, I can drill down.
[Craig Maier] [980.48s] I mean, you know, when you write an academic paper, the first job is to that you have to do is is, you know, read everything that's written on that particular topic.
[Craig Maier] [989.04s] And then I would say, okay.
[Craig Maier] [989.92s] That's fine.
[Craig Maier] [990.80s] Where do I start?
[Craig Maier] [991.76s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [992.16s] Top left corner we go.
[Craig Maier] [993.85s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [994.33s] A 1000 pages later, I'm done.
[Craig Maier] [996.25s] That's easy for me.
[Craig Maier] [997.45s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [998.33s] But moving outside of that, right, it's it's, you know, again, it can be quite challenging, quite scary, intimidating.
[Craig Maier] [1006.52s] Yeah.
[Mike] [1007.25s] I was, I'm just curious.
[Mike] [1008.86s] I know for me, a lot of, like, the social issues that I've dealt with very similar.
[Mike] [1013.25s] And for me, with those I also hate the term social interest.
[Mike] [1017.26s] With those interests, I am able to focus and kind of structure things around those specific topics, you know, what I'm into, what I like to do, but I'm unable to structure properly creating a social structure or interacting with friends and things like that.
[Mike] [1035.97s] And it's because I'm I'm attempting to put the same level of rulemaking and construction around social interaction, and it becomes very overwhelming to me.
[Mike] [1047.88s] And we're arguably, many neurotypicals don't feel the need to construct around social interaction where I think I don't know if it the same for you, but running into that problem where it just it becomes this job, essentially.
[Craig Maier] [1063.49s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1064.05s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1064.53s] I I agree.
[Craig Maier] [1065.57s] There's that there's that it feels it is a job.
[Craig Maier] [1069.42s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1070.30s] And it is it it it could be really, really challenging to figure that out.
[Craig Maier] [1076.10s] Actually, the the one thing that's interesting is I end up getting my, like, my my doctoral work actually end up being in interpersonal communication, interpersonal organizational communication, you know, in in large part because, you know, I was advised that that that was hard for me.
[Craig Maier] [1093.06s] And so I was studying something that that that was, you know, so by by studying it, by making it into a special interest making it into an interest.
[Craig Maier] [1103.81s] Sorry.
[Craig Maier] [1104.61s] I, you know, I was able to learn quite a bit, and so now I can navigate those encounters a lot better.
[Craig Maier] [1113.13s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1113.46s] Maybe because, you know, I've I've I've I kind of read myself into it, but I agree.
[Craig Maier] [1119.01s] I find unstructured networking to be, Oh my gosh, that is, you know, I I really have to I mean, I can do it.
[Craig Maier] [1130.59s] And maybe maybe if it is something where a networking event could actually work, because I know everyone there is network.
[Craig Maier] [1136.99s] And so I can come up with the topics and I can kind of navigate that well.
[Craig Maier] [1141.71s] But but yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1142.91s] I mean, if it if it veers off that, it can be it can be challenging.
[Craig Maier] [1147.72s] I mean, I and the the same thing too is I do find it I I do find an ease when I talk with other people who are neurodivergent.
[Craig Maier] [1158.75s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1159.07s] There's there's there's an there's an ease and a and a rapport that is almost immediate to me, you know, because I I think we somehow we resonate fairly easily on, you know, similar similar frequencies.
[Craig Maier] [1172.59s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [1172.99s] Yes.
[Craig Maier] [1173.55s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1174.03s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1174.75s] I I I agree.
[Chaya] [1176.19s] So I have a question.
[Chaya] [1177.62s] Both of you said job.
[Chaya] [1178.73s] It sounds like a job, social networking.
[Chaya] [1181.70s] So my question is, is there a desire inside of you to be social that that you have to do it, that you want to do it, and then somewhere it it it feels like a job?
[Chaya] [1196.67s] Or is it is there are you being forced?
[Chaya] [1199.71s] Is it is there, like, a force?
[Mike] [1202.14s] For me, it's a kind of a combination of, like, a yearning and and the expectation.
[Mike] [1207.98s] So occasionally and occasionally, they cross, but sometimes there's just an expectation that I have to go do this thing, and I want to show that I can do this thing.
[Mike] [1218.62s] But, you know, it's like I'm being pushed to the other side of the room by an invisible force, and I'm trying to, like, stay at the corner.
[Mike] [1225.28s] And other times, it's me sitting in the corner yearning to go over there, but I just I don't even know how to how to approach it.
[Mike] [1233.38s] It's, you know, it's like trying to walk into a lion's den and hoping you fit you you know, nobody notices you or something.
[Craig Maier] [1240.99s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1241.15s] I mean, there's there's a lot there.
[Craig Maier] [1243.87s] Again, that yearning is there, but there's also just that that uncertainty because I don't know sometimes I don't know how it's gonna turn out.
[Craig Maier] [1253.99s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1254.47s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1254.79s] And because because there are enough moments where things can go south quickly enough, you know, very and in very unexpected ways that I'm just that I go, oh my you know, it's better for me not to, you know, the the the it's better for me not to engage.
[Craig Maier] [1272.65s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1272.97s] So I I feel that.
[Craig Maier] [1274.73s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1275.47s] You know, one of the things that I find helpful is what I have found helpful in the past is being in spaces where where I could find or hope to find people who I believe more like me.
[Craig Maier] [1291.60s] So academia, for instance, one of the reasons why I think I was really interested in academia was that, you know, I I felt that there would be greater chance of people who were like me there.
[Craig Maier] [1305.97s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1306.30s] I think actually Tony Atwood said that in in his book on had Asperger, she he he said that academia is academia has stem fields.
[Craig Maier] [1315.87s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [1316.27s] The the the this is they they people congregate.
[Craig Maier] [1319.41s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [1320.01s] People with with, you know, that type of neurodivergence often congregate in those spaces because it because that's it gets rewarded there.
[Craig Maier] [1329.28s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1329.60s] And maybe if there was some you know, the hope was perhaps that I would be able to find and connect with other people.
[Craig Maier] [1338.34s] But the but the challenge, of course, is that, you know, you might end up in a that those beliefs, those expectations often or may not always come true, right?
[Craig Maier] [1348.86s] The academia may not be the the place where you can feel safe because there are lots of things about academia that are not safe.
[Craig Maier] [1358.20s] And if you again, if you get overwhelmed easily, if you're highly sensitive, right, it can be just as just as challenging as anywhere else.
[Chaya] [1369.07s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1369.79s] Thank you for explaining.
[Chaya] [1371.31s] And it's so unique and different for everyone.
[Chaya] [1375.13s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1375.62s] Yeah.
[Mike] [1376.17s] Well, it's the it's the fear of, like, the post interaction rumination.
[Mike] [1380.82s] Right?
[Mike] [1381.29s] If it doesn't click in the exact scripted way, it is kind of in your mind or your expectation that you're going to ruminate afterwards on it and it's going to bother you.
[Mike] [1391.39s] And then it's it's the anxiety and the fear of that may be happening that then keeps you from even trying.
[Mike] [1399.70s] I know that's what I run into, like, time and time again.
[Mike] [1402.74s] You know, I wanna go over there.
[Mike] [1404.26s] I wanna interact.
[Mike] [1405.22s] I wanna network.
[Mike] [1407.26s] If something goes, you know, a millimeter to the left, then this is what I'm gonna be thinking about for, you know, the next 2 weeks, and it's gonna bother me.
[Mike] [1416.38s] And Mhmm.
[Mike] [1417.66s] Mhmm.
[Mike] [1418.94s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1419.34s] And it's about, you know, learning how for me, it's about learning how to put that aside.
[Craig Maier] [1425.18s] Yes.
[Craig Maier] [1425.74s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1426.46s] And and and say, okay.
[Craig Maier] [1428.14s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1428.94s] And you know, yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1430.43s] I and I think it's, you know, one of the problems too is that there's the the challenge of overthinking.
[Craig Maier] [1436.27s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1436.88s] And, you know, you really overthink this stuff.
[Craig Maier] [1439.04s] And, you know, and because in reality, the person you're talking to might not have noticed they might not have noticed that at all.
[Craig Maier] [1446.32s] I mean, actually, the interesting thing was it's very similar to one of the things we would talk about in public speaking, where people feel the need to talk really, really fast.
[Craig Maier] [1459.70s] If people are anxious giving a presentation, one of the things that they do is talk really fast and be really frightened of making pauses because you know, and the dead air that comes.
[Craig Maier] [1470.70s] But when you look at that from the audience side of it, you know, the audience doesn't notice that you might have taken that little extra pause because it it feels longer to you because you're in it.
[Craig Maier] [1482.35s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1482.99s] And and, actually, the other thing that I always tell folks who are anxious about public speaking is to remind themselves that the audience, your audience wants you to do well.
[Craig Maier] [1493.93s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1494.55s] And and that's something that I think about too that that that it would be in my interpersonal communication as well.
[Craig Maier] [1500.47s] It's it's the,
[Chaya] [1501.53s] you know,
[Craig Maier] [1502.16s] person I'm talking to actually wants to have a good conversation too.
[Craig Maier] [1505.21s] They want me to do well.
[Craig Maier] [1506.40s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [1506.88s] It's not they're not nitpicking me to that.
[Chaya] [1509.26s] I think I think we have this need to be perfect, and that plays to it as well.
[Chaya] [1515.58s] And, yeah, it's the overthinking, the perfectionism.
[Chaya] [1519.28s] But if you look at all of that, somewhere that was fed to us that you have to speak a certain way.
[Chaya] [1526.56s] You have to be a certain way.
[Chaya] [1528.16s] Or we ourselves in our minds thought that that is perfect.
[Chaya] [1532.96s] Maybe it looked good on somebody, and so we think that we want to be that that we admire.
[Chaya] [1540.91s] And in that process, we don't honor ourselves, and that plays out.
[Chaya] [1546.59s] So for me, all my life, I've my journey is to go in words, believe in myself, speak from my heart, but it's a constant talking.
[Chaya] [1557.77s] It's a constant speech to myself.
[Chaya] [1561.05s] Believe in yourself.
[Chaya] [1562.33s] Love yourself.
[Chaya] [1563.29s] You're perfect the way you are.
[Craig Maier] [1565.73s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1565.89s] And and because that perfectionism is really that it's trying to to keep yourself from making a mistake.
[Craig Maier] [1572.78s] It's it's trying it it I mean, it's trying to protect you in the worst way possible.
[Craig Maier] [1576.87s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [1577.27s] It just is dry it is just eating you up.
[Craig Maier] [1579.67s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1580.21s] And so that that need to really break break through that as you're as you're saying, it's just like, you know, you know, because it comes from very early experiences of knowing implicitly that you that you're not fitting in.
[Craig Maier] [1596.24s] You're not like everyone else, and so it must be your fault.
[Craig Maier] [1600.37s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1600.68s] That's that's the thing.
[Craig Maier] [1602.20s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1602.61s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [1602.92s] I mean, actually, one of the things I was reading is, you know, like, when we are very young, our brainwaves, like, up to like, like, between ages, like, 26, I think, our brain waves are like are the are the same waves as if we were hippies.
[Craig Maier] [1620.85s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1621.40s] So what's happening is that when we're when we're, like, 3, 4, 5 years old, we're walking around the world just accepting the world as it comes to us because that's the only rule we got.
[Craig Maier] [1633.97s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1634.53s] And we're making fundamental decisions and fundamental assumptions about ourselves and our capabilities before we have the ability to think critically about the world around us.
[Craig Maier] [1646.43s] We just we just suck it all in.
[Craig Maier] [1648.33s] So if you are growing up and, you know, as a 4 year old, you know you're a little off.
[Craig Maier] [1653.92s] You know the world is not is not like you are not like everyone else.
[Craig Maier] [1658.64s] And because but you know that know that, you know, it's either I'm wrong or the world is wrong.
[Craig Maier] [1664.59s] And it's too scary to to to believe that the world is wrong.
[Craig Maier] [1667.87s] So guess what?
[Craig Maier] [1668.74s] What?
[Craig Maier] [1669.31s] It's me.
[Craig Maier] [1669.79s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1670.18s] I've got I've got to shape up.
[Craig Maier] [1671.79s] I've got to fit in.
[Craig Maier] [1672.90s] I'm the problem.
[Craig Maier] [1673.87s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1674.39s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [1674.71s] And and that's that's the that's where the perfectionism always that that's where it can come from.
[Craig Maier] [1680.39s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1680.55s] Because it's it's me.
[Craig Maier] [1681.80s] It's up to me.
[Craig Maier] [1682.76s] I've gotta figure out how I'm gonna fit in.
[Craig Maier] [1684.52s] And that's, like, just exhausting.
[Chaya] [1686.13s] It is exhausting.
[Chaya] [1686.92s] And we think that's where our skill learning is, to be perfect like somebody else.
[Chaya] [1693.57s] Public speaking was one of the biggest challenges.
[Chaya] [1697.89s] But then now I hear that is the biggest fear in the world today.
[Craig Maier] [1701.98s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1703.42s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1704.70s] And but it comes from for me, if I look back, it was asking me to speak when I didn't want to speak, when I was not interested in the topic.
[Craig Maier] [1715.97s] Mhmm.
[Chaya] [1716.85s] I had to use my memory to speak.
[Chaya] [1722.28s] The rote memorization I was traumatized by rote memorization back.
[Chaya] [1727.11s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1727.35s] I could never remember and say things.
[Chaya] [1731.59s] And so all of that added to my fear, and I knew I could not speak in front of a mic, which today I'm speaking for.
[Chaya] [1740.66s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1742.18s] So it was crazy.
[Chaya] [1745.13s] And so it's all the rules.
[Chaya] [1746.65s] It's the rules of you should be like that.
[Chaya] [1749.53s] You should speak like this.
[Chaya] [1751.13s] It's you should be succinct.
[Chaya] [1753.13s] You should not go off tangent.
[Chaya] [1756.11s] And the rules like that because we're like sponges.
[Chaya] [1759.47s] Right?
[Chaya] [1759.71s] We're sensitive.
[Chaya] [1760.51s] The neurodivergent population are super sensitive.
[Chaya] [1764.22s] So I think any what anybody says will go deep inside and will stick.
[Chaya] [1770.55s] And maybe someone said told me that when I was a child, I'm sure I was told a lot of things as a child.
[Chaya] [1777.43s] And as you said, we were all sponges taking in taking in no filters, and and then we believe that's us, all those negative comments, those rules.
[Craig Maier] [1788.61s] It's it's funny as you're talking.
[Craig Maier] [1790.45s] Well, one of the things that I did one of the I think the greatest decisions that I made as a teacher, as a professor, was to flip my classroom.
[Craig Maier] [1800.84s] And what that means is I deliberately had my students speak first.
[Craig Maier] [1808.92s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1809.40s] So what I what I what I always did was I created contexts where if I had to if I had to present anything, like, just I would oh my gosh.
[Craig Maier] [1821.45s] No.
[Craig Maier] [1823.13s] Because I know again, I go off on tangents.
[Craig Maier] [1826.64s] I say whatever comes into my head, which may or may not be I mean, it's all fine, but it's all Again, it can be difficult for people to connect and so forth.
[Craig Maier] [1839.27s] But if I flip it around and have people talk to me, and then I respond to what they were saying, that made everything go so much better.
[Craig Maier] [1852.35s] And so I was talking as so my goal was to talk as as little as possible.
[Craig Maier] [1857.13s] And then every single semester in my teaching evaluations, someone would always say, I wish you would talk less.
[Craig Maier] [1864.51s] So so I'm like, okay.
[Craig Maier] [1865.63s] Well, yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1866.59s] So but, yeah, it's like for me, I I have I have the same thing.
[Craig Maier] [1871.38s] I I don't know if I have this the the pope speaking anxiety, but I do have the this this little concern that I'm gonna go off topic.
[Craig Maier] [1880.41s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1880.65s] And and and so as a professor, I would I consciously avoided giving presentations in, like, any sort of form no no slide decks, Nothing like that.
[Craig Maier] [1891.43s] I I really find that I I just I I found that really uncomfortable.
[Craig Maier] [1896.32s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [1896.56s] So giving a TED talk, that's not what I do.
[Craig Maier] [1898.82s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [1899.30s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1900.10s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1900.82s] Going off topic.
[Chaya] [1902.82s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1903.46s] I know.
[Chaya] [1903.86s] I don't know where where we wanted to talk about a lot of things.
[Chaya] [1908.08s] We wanted to talk about the German educational system.
[Craig Maier] [1912.56s] Oh, yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1913.67s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1913.99s] So I what, yeah, let's let's what do we want to well, first of all, what do you wanna know?
[Craig Maier] [1920.71s] That's there we go.
[Craig Maier] [1921.83s] I'm flipping it around on you.
[Craig Maier] [1923.11s] I mean, because there are lots of different things that that we can talk about there.
[Chaya] [1927.05s] Just curious, especially from neurodivergent mind, what what what are the first of all, what are what's the big difference from the US system to the German system?
[Chaya] [1938.88s] And Mhmm.
[Chaya] [1939.84s] Why is it more challenging out there for a neurodivergent child compared to here?
[Chaya] [1945.88s] What are those challenges?
[Craig Maier] [1948.28s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [1948.76s] So I can talk because my I can talk about my my son because I'm I'm my my son is neurodivergent.
[Craig Maier] [1958.26s] Somewhere, probably, we definitely see him as having ADHD, perhaps also he was still he doesn't know where where he lands right now.
[Craig Maier] [1967.78s] It's it it but it's it's clear that he's neurodivergent.
[Craig Maier] [1971.22s] We knew that before we moved to Germany, but then the shifting to Or we we suspected it before we moved to Germany, but the shift to this context where the support system of being in the states wasn't there for him anymore where everyone was speaking another language.
[Craig Maier] [1989.13s] It was it was much more stressful for him.
[Craig Maier] [1991.85s] And so the the the traits really asserted themselves.
[Craig Maier] [1996.45s] And so things that I found helpful about the German system, One thing that I thought was really helpful about the German system was is that with school here, first of all, it starts at later ages.
[Craig Maier] [2012.88s] So where we in in his school, he's he did kindergarten in the United States, and we reenrolled him in in the equivalent of American kindergarten, which is first grade.
[Craig Maier] [2026.72s] So German first grade is the same thing as American kindergarten.
[Craig Maier] [2030.33s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2030.72s] And and German kindergarten is the same as American preschool.
[Craig Maier] [2033.53s] So it's kinda they have different terms for the same thing.
[Craig Maier] [2036.73s] But but he it's similar sort of he was at the 1st year of school.
[Craig Maier] [2042.57s] His peers, 6a half and 7, in the United States, you're starting at at, you know, maybe 5, 5a half, 6.
[Craig Maier] [2049.91s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2050.24s] So they're they're already a year older.
[Craig Maier] [2053.31s] They come in not knowing how to read.
[Craig Maier] [2056.51s] It's actually advised not to not to teach your child to read.
[Craig Maier] [2060.49s] And the goal of German first grade is to know your alphabet, read simple words, count to 20, and add and add and subtract, which were the things that my son was expected to do before he started kindergarten in the United States.
[Craig Maier] [2078.47s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2079.39s] So there's you're starting later.
[Craig Maier] [2083.14s] You're starting in a in a lot less competitive, a lot less pressure environment.
[Craig Maier] [2090.34s] And the school day is maybe 3 hours long, 3 to 4 hours long.
[Craig Maier] [2096.22s] So it is substantially shorter.
[Craig Maier] [2099.18s] And what we noticed right off the bat was the amount of stress that he was experiencing early on was was a lot a lot less when he would go to American schools, full day kindergarten.
[Craig Maier] [2118.55s] It was, you know, it was 6 and a half hours a day, and he would you know, it's like the the, the cook ball.
[Craig Maier] [2124.35s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2124.59s] You shake the cook ball, and then you you take out you you take off the cap, and it goes all over the place.
[Craig Maier] [2129.87s] That was that was him every day after school.
[Craig Maier] [2132.78s] Now it's different.
[Craig Maier] [2137.65s] He comes home a lot more regulated.
[Craig Maier] [2140.39s] He he still is bouncing you know, bouncing around and doing all these things.
[Craig Maier] [2144.31s] He's a lot of energy that's that's pent up.
[Craig Maier] [2147.59s] That's not nearly as much there.
[Craig Maier] [2149.66s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2151.09s] So there's some that those are the things that I really like about the German system.
[Craig Maier] [2156.54s] What's challenging here is the and a and again, I'm gonna I'm I wanna just preface everything that I say that I am not the expert on the German education system.
[Craig Maier] [2167.80s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2168.11s] I don't have a PhD in it.
[Craig Maier] [2169.80s] I haven't written I haven't I've not published any articles.
[Craig Maier] [2172.59s] So it's you know, this is just n of 1.
[Craig Maier] [2175.17s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2175.41s] This is this is my own experience in talking with other people, talking with the parents, seeing what's going on here.
[Craig Maier] [2181.81s] But the level of awareness of neurodiversity in general is really extremely low.
[Craig Maier] [2192.14s] The level of awareness of ADHD is extremely low.
[Craig Maier] [2199.48s] When we talked about because as the school year has progressed, my my my my son is, you know, with those ADHD trace have come out.
[Craig Maier] [2209.89s] We've talked with this was several months ago.
[Craig Maier] [2212.69s] A month or 2 ago, we talked with this teacher and she said about we said that he we think he might have ADHD.
[Craig Maier] [2220.22s] We're getting evaluated and so forth.
[Craig Maier] [2222.22s] And she said oh, that the next day she said, oh, that's really interesting.
[Craig Maier] [2225.41s] I went home and watched a video on YouTube about it.
[Craig Maier] [2228.61s] And and and that was really what she knows about neurodiversity.
[Craig Maier] [2232.05s] Like, literally, you know, she's she's my age.
[Craig Maier] [2234.85s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2235.49s] You know, she's been teaching for 30 years and that so the exposure to ADHD is really low here.
[Craig Maier] [2245.15s] The awareness of it.
[Craig Maier] [2246.51s] I think there are lots of it's and it's also quite difficult to get diagnosed here.
[Craig Maier] [2253.59s] And the way they go about it is it seems to be quite different.
[Craig Maier] [2259.76s] The number of clinicians available to diagnose you is really low.
[Craig Maier] [2265.12s] We are in the city of about, you know, 250, 200, you know, 250,000 people.
[Craig Maier] [2270.51s] I think there might be 3 clinicians who do who do evaluations for neurodiversity.
[Craig Maier] [2277.39s] And the the question is the level of of of confidence and awareness of those people.
[Craig Maier] [2284.90s] I the other thing that that's important is that the clinical framework for diagnosing ADHD here is very different than it is in the United States.
[Craig Maier] [2297.38s] The the United States uses the DSM 5.
[Craig Maier] [2300.90s] Here, they use the what's called the ICD 10.
[Craig Maier] [2305.11s] So it has the ADHD has a different name.
[Craig Maier] [2307.51s] It's called, I think it's called hyperkinetic disorder here.
[Craig Maier] [2311.34s] And And the criteria are slightly different in a way that centers I really feel it centers the diagnostic process, not on the experience of the individual, but on the expertise of the clinician.
[Craig Maier] [2326.77s] So when you I was actually looking at it earlier today.
[Craig Maier] [2331.11s] And one of the things they say is, you know, the United or in the DSM-five, they say symptoms of ADHD have to occur in 2 or more settings.
[Craig Maier] [2339.86s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2340.41s] Whereas the the here, the the the criterion is sent to the the full syndrome has to manifest in more than 2 settings and be witnessed by the clinician.
[Craig Maier] [2355.38s] So if if if a tree falls into a into a forest in the forest and there is no clinician there to see it, it doesn't fall, Right?
[Craig Maier] [2363.22s] And and so that can lead into a lot of really challenging situations.
[Craig Maier] [2367.30s] I I was in a ADHD support group and there was a woman there and she said that she wanted to have her son evaluated for ADHD and autism.
[Craig Maier] [2379.37s] And she managed to get someone, a clinician to see her son.
[Craig Maier] [2384.12s] And he did the evaluation and the response was, well, yes, it's definitely that he has ADHD.
[Craig Maier] [2392.22s] He does not have autism.
[Craig Maier] [2393.82s] And the the woman said, well, you know, have you considered this, this, and this?
[Craig Maier] [2398.45s] And so she was given all the evidence she had collected.
[Craig Maier] [2401.57s] And he stopped there and he said, no.
[Craig Maier] [2403.97s] He does not have autism.
[Craig Maier] [2405.93s] End of story.
[Craig Maier] [2406.82s] Case closed.
[Craig Maier] [2407.70s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2408.73s] Again, really a different experience.
[Craig Maier] [2411.38s] I know of another person who is older, and and he he, I think, had to go to 3 clinicians because the first two told him he told him that, well, because you graduated from high school and college, it's impossible that you would have ADHD.
[Craig Maier] [2429.34s] Wow.
[Craig Maier] [2430.07s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2430.63s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2431.61s] So that's, you know, that's the that that that's the yeah.
[Chaya] [2437.21s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2437.45s] The you talked about awareness.
[Chaya] [2439.21s] That that's not fully present here also in the US.
[Chaya] [2444.41s] And, also, what people think of ADHD or autism is very different than the actual reality of it.
[Chaya] [2452.04s] And and not and so even the fact that people look at it as a disorder, as a disability, it it is a disability when you're trying to be someone you're not.
[Chaya] [2463.59s] Right?
[Chaya] [2463.99s] Trying to fit into a system, which is not honoring the talents and gifts that neurodivergent people have, possess.
[Chaya] [2473.22s] And so it is a disability in that sense, but there's nothing wrong with the person.
[Chaya] [2479.78s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2479.93s] Because yeah, so that awareness is not there here at that high level that wait a second.
[Chaya] [2488.14s] This child has something to offer to this world.
[Chaya] [2492.09s] Let's try to figure out what is it that they have, and why are they even throwing those tantrums, or why are they being fidgety, or why are they running around the class, why are they talking in class, what's going on?
[Chaya] [2504.94s] Well, let's try to figure things out instead of just calling it a disorder or disability.
[Chaya] [2512.59s] So that awareness is not here.
[Chaya] [2515.78s] They're here or anywhere.
[Chaya] [2518.42s] So and that's why we're creating this show and wanna talk about that.
[Chaya] [2523.09s] And I know we are pressed for time.
[Chaya] [2525.41s] I would want to get deeper into the German system someday, maybe another day.
[Craig Maier] [2531.09s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2531.93s] And how it's actually what harm that it could cause the child, especially I remember we talked about at a previous time about at some point putting the child away to a different system based on certain criterias, things like that, and and the impact that could have on a child when they grow up.
[Craig Maier] [2552.98s] Yes.
[Craig Maier] [2553.78s] Because, again, that's the the the the reason why those physicians did not believe that it was possible to have ADHD and graduate high school and college is because children who have who are neurodivergent in a way that might inhibit them academically are simply not referred to college preparatory coursework.
[Craig Maier] [2577.32s] It it and that happens at, like, age 9 or 10.
[Chaya] [2581.33s] That's unbelievable.
[Chaya] [2583.09s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2583.57s] Because I I that's such a young age, and that and that, again, does not define their intelligence.
[Craig Maier] [2590.86s] No.
[Chaya] [2591.59s] It it's based on the current educational system.
[Craig Maier] [2594.86s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2595.34s] Eating and reproducing, doing repetitive works.
[Chaya] [2598.94s] Because they could still be great at math, but the the delivery mechanism
[Craig Maier] [2604.14s] Exactly.
[Craig Maier] [2604.54s] And the perfectionism, you know, I mean, that's it's it's, you know, I mean yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2609.11s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2609.34s] It's it's it's difficult.
[Craig Maier] [2610.86s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2611.27s] It it it it's not this curriculum is very narrow.
[Craig Maier] [2614.97s] Like, what my son is doing, it's very narrow, and it's not designed for for people who are neurodivergent, particularly people who have, you know, who might have ADHD, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, you know, those differences, right, it can be really hard for you.
[Craig Maier] [2635.09s] I mean, it's just the whole thing of, like, you know, homework where you have to make an f 30 times.
[Craig Maier] [2640.64s] And if you don't get it right, the teacher asks you to redo it.
[Craig Maier] [2643.43s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2643.76s] That, you know, that level, I mean, it just oh my gosh.
[Craig Maier] [2647.79s] I I just can't imagine what that would be like.
[Chaya] [2650.43s] Wow.
[Chaya] [2650.83s] That's going against the natural instinct of Yeah.
[Chaya] [2655.51s] Not being perfect.
[Craig Maier] [2657.27s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2657.91s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2658.31s] How I grew up.
[Chaya] [2659.11s] I went to a connoisseur, and that's exactly repeating the neat
[Mike] [2664.52s] Mhmm.
[Chaya] [2665.32s] Perfect.
[Chaya] [2665.96s] Those x should be perfect.
[Chaya] [2667.64s] Right?
[Chaya] [2668.12s] Mhmm.
[Chaya] [2668.52s] Yeah.
[Mike] [2669.00s] It's the pressure of getting it right the first time always the worst.
[Craig Maier] [2672.99s] Mhmm.
[Craig Maier] [2673.39s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2673.95s] And that pays off as into our adulthood as well.
[Craig Maier] [2678.27s] It it does.
[Craig Maier] [2679.27s] And but, again, I think the thing that's so important is to be recognizing that as parents to be able to to give kids the resources that they need.
[Craig Maier] [2689.49s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2689.89s] And and and so it's yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2691.57s] How can we find a way?
[Craig Maier] [2692.61s] Because that's that's that's what we end up doing a lot is thinking about how what what's the best system?
[Craig Maier] [2699.00s] How can we find a way to get the the get our kid the resources that that he needs to succeed?
[Craig Maier] [2704.84s] How can we acknowledge his gifts?
[Craig Maier] [2707.01s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [2707.24s] It's yeah.
[Chaya] [2708.28s] And it's okay if those f's are not perfect.
[Craig Maier] [2711.09s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2711.48s] What Happy to know.
[Craig Maier] [2712.36s] What is that?
[Craig Maier] [2713.09s] I I do.
[Craig Maier] [2714.48s] Right.
[Craig Maier] [2714.80s] I I find that infuriating.
[Craig Maier] [2716.56s] Yeah.
[Mike] [2717.12s] Well, I just out of curiosity, what are some very, like, at home things people can do to kind of support their child's learning and development whenever we're kind of dealing with an education system that is a runaway train.
[Mike] [2732.07s] And if your kid doesn't manage to catch it, you know, they're left behind.
[Craig Maier] [2737.35s] I well, first of all, I'm still trying to figure that out because my kid's only 6.
[Craig Maier] [2741.41s] So it's, you know, we're at the very beginning of this and maybe Chaya would have some ideas as well.
[Craig Maier] [2747.83s] But I really feel that I think that the the the the maybe the first step, the one that I'm the one the one thing that I'm trying to do is really trying to acknowledge and notice my kid in all of this.
[Craig Maier] [2765.60s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2766.16s] And and so what what what is really lighting him up?
[Craig Maier] [2771.04s] What really interests him?
[Craig Maier] [2773.47s] How can I and and and also how can I you know, if that doesn't align with his academic performance right now, how can I just let go of that?
[Craig Maier] [2785.62s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2786.18s] You know, as someone who is really good at school, and my wife is also really good at school, it it's really challenging when you have a kid who is not not wired in that way, but is a kid who loves being read to.
[Craig Maier] [2803.47s] You know, you know, just the most, you know, like, really, really complex things.
[Craig Maier] [2808.67s] You know, if you were so reading is a challenge for him because of the language and because of maybe some other, you know, attention and and those types of things.
[Craig Maier] [2819.19s] It's it's it's challenging there.
[Craig Maier] [2821.11s] But being read to, he can be read to for hours, you know, complex things.
[Craig Maier] [2826.42s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [2827.30s] And and he can process things that are, you know, like like deep that are, you know, communicated to, like, orally.
[Craig Maier] [2834.75s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2834.99s] So he he he has a really good memory of of, you know, facts and, you know, historical facts, and he has really deep interests in, you know, ancient history and and and those types of things.
[Craig Maier] [2848.59s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [2849.07s] And and and I think for us, it's about maybe and maybe the thing is is noticing, you know, noticing his gifts, noticing his struggles, accepting those things, and then really trying to figure out what interests him.
[Craig Maier] [2862.03s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2862.51s] What are the things that really, really interests you?
[Craig Maier] [2864.99s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [2865.86s] And and connecting with those those things.
[Craig Maier] [2868.03s] That's what I'm trying to do.
[Chaya] [2869.47s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2869.63s] And and it's okay that he doesn't learn in the traditional way, but Mhmm.
[Chaya] [2875.39s] Out ways he's actually learning.
[Chaya] [2877.79s] We are often punished for the methodologies and not the end result because, you know, what really matters is how he shows up in the world.
[Chaya] [2888.02s] Right?
[Chaya] [2888.49s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2889.10s] How he gets the information in his system.
[Chaya] [2892.86s] It's not about the way he does it, but, yeah, he's gonna soak in if he's into it, if he's interested in it, and if it's presented presented in a way that he will consume it.
[Craig Maier] [2905.38s] Yes.
[Craig Maier] [2906.02s] Exactly.
[Craig Maier] [2906.90s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2907.22s] And he loves art.
[Craig Maier] [2908.42s] I mean, art yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2909.46s] He does he does he does doesn't like art class.
[Craig Maier] [2911.78s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2912.66s] Because art class, you're telling him what to do.
[Craig Maier] [2915.07s] If you gave him a sheet of paper and paints, he would, you know, he he would create anything.
[Craig Maier] [2920.66s] You know, he would just he would just go.
[Craig Maier] [2922.66s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [2923.06s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2923.38s] But he love he he loves art.
[Chaya] [2925.38s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2925.70s] That that should I I I personally didn't go to an art class, but because I always felt that the teacher would tell me what to do, and I never wanted to be told what to do.
[Craig Maier] [2937.29s] Which is yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2937.93s] That's that's my boy.
[Craig Maier] [2939.05s] Yes.
[Craig Maier] [2939.36s] Right there.
[Chaya] [2941.91s] So that is and I think definitely creativity you should you should be given guidance as to what material and just kind of a high level picture.
[Chaya] [2952.47s] But to create, you need a lot of freedom.
[Craig Maier] [2955.28s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2955.68s] I mean and yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2956.95s] He and he really I mean, because I think the art, I think music is really important for him.
[Craig Maier] [2963.39s] Gateboarding.
[Craig Maier] [2964.67s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [2965.57s] Those types of things are really important to him.
[Craig Maier] [2968.05s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [2969.02s] These are really you know?
[Craig Maier] [2970.38s] And and so it's for us, it's connecting to those interests, connecting him to those interests, and then using that energy to begin to help him with with the things that he might be struggling with.
[Craig Maier] [2983.46s] Yeah.
[Mike] [2984.11s] And you can start by really celebrating how he intakes
[Craig Maier] [2989.30s] Mhmm.
[Mike] [2989.70s] Instead of, like, I've always been taking information or learned in a very specific way.
[Mike] [2995.12s] Mhmm.
[Mike] [2995.36s] It's usually centered on very specific things and constantly having to know you're not supposed to learn that way.
[Mike] [3003.02s] You're supposed to learn this way.
[Mike] [3004.45s] You're supposed to go over here and do it this way.
[Mike] [3007.12s] And it would shame me into like, well, I I'm not supposed to do it the way that I want to.
[Mike] [3014.14s] I'm I'm arriving at the same destination, was doing it a different way.
[Mike] [3017.74s] But when you and and then, you know, we overpraise the, Oh, you're doing it the same way everybody else is.
[Mike] [3024.31s] Yay.
[Mike] [3025.03s] You're doing good.
[Mike] [3026.07s] It's like, Well, why aren't you praising the way I want to do it?
[Mike] [3029.51s] If it's the same thing's happening, you know, if you if you really celebrate that, celebrate the neurodivergence in that way, then it just excites the the child to want to continue to go down that path and experience these things in that way because they know this is something I can do.
[Craig Maier] [3048.48s] Mhmm.
[Craig Maier] [3049.45s] Exactly.
[Craig Maier] [3050.26s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3051.54s] So when it comes to your coaching, I was just wanting to know, how do you approach goal setting?
[Craig Maier] [3058.81s] Within the session or within just life?
[Mike] [3061.77s] A little bit of both, I guess.
[Craig Maier] [3063.69s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [3064.49s] I mean, I think because so what I do is I approach well, first of all, if somebody comes in with a goal, I think that's really great.
[Craig Maier] [3074.06s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [3074.38s] It's it's like but but sometimes, you know, depending on, you know, how you're wired, it might be difficult to come up with a specific goal.
[Craig Maier] [3083.00s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [3083.80s] So I find that the beginning of the the end of the conversation is much more important than the beginning of the conversation.
[Craig Maier] [3092.62s] So we, you know, we just kind of, like, go and we start, you know, check-in.
[Craig Maier] [3097.82s] And we we just we we follow about, you know, what how the you know, what's been going on.
[Craig Maier] [3105.07s] And then often a goal emerges or maybe a goal let.
[Craig Maier] [3109.63s] I don't know.
[Craig Maier] [3110.26s] I got a little goal.
[Craig Maier] [3111.90s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [3112.38s] And then we we kinda begin to work with that and inquire about that.
[Craig Maier] [3116.86s] But then what I find is at the the end of the session where where where I'm asking, okay.
[Craig Maier] [3123.72s] Well, what is this how has this conversation been helping you?
[Craig Maier] [3126.93s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [3127.64s] That's where they can begin to pull things together, And then we can begin to to it's the the I find that to be the the most important part of the session for me personally.
[Craig Maier] [3139.39s] As for the the the sort of life goal thing, what I'm finding really important, particularly for folks who are neurodivergent is really hope focusing in on interest.
[Craig Maier] [3150.02s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [3150.58s] What is really interesting you?
[Craig Maier] [3153.54s] What is fascinating you right now?
[Craig Maier] [3156.42s] And, you know, and that that to me, that's the key.
[Craig Maier] [3161.78s] If we can find you know, same thing with my kid.
[Craig Maier] [3164.58s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [3165.03s] If we can find what interests you, what you're really passionate about, then we can start to direct effort toward that.
[Craig Maier] [3172.15s] Because once you have that, it's really, you know, it's it it makes some things look so much easier.
[Craig Maier] [3178.95s] For instance, even, you know, something like if if you have challenges focusing in meetings, for instance.
[Craig Maier] [3185.02s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [3185.66s] One of the things that we talk about is, well, what what might interest you in this meeting?
[Craig Maier] [3190.62s] And the answer is, well, nothing will interest me in this meeting.
[Craig Maier] [3193.26s] Well, then that then there that's why this meeting is important but not interesting.
[Craig Maier] [3199.09s] So, yes, we just accept it.
[Chaya] [3202.13s] Let's accept it.
[Chaya] [3203.09s] Right?
[Chaya] [3203.49s] Exactly.
[Craig Maier] [3204.21s] Let's just accept that.
[Craig Maier] [3205.57s] But there might be something about, okay, well, let's let's step back and say, okay, well, what might interest you about this meeting?
[Craig Maier] [3213.47s] And and sometimes that actually could be enough.
[Craig Maier] [3217.07s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [3218.03s] What what might interest me in this meeting?
[Craig Maier] [3220.03s] That might keep you focused.
[Craig Maier] [3221.55s] And, yeah, it's it's it's really I find that really helpful.
[Craig Maier] [3226.01s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [3226.32s] I mean, you know, because for me, competing with my interest is and and that could be a lot I don't have one specific interest.
[Craig Maier] [3233.20s] I have lots.
[Craig Maier] [3234.15s] But if I if I can be if I'm with in the presence of my interest, I find that deeply nourishing.
[Chaya] [3240.63s] And sometimes it could be the answer could be just communication.
[Chaya] [3243.91s] Right?
[Chaya] [3244.30s] Communicating to someone that you really may or may not want to be in that meeting.
[Chaya] [3249.79s] So it could result the results of that could not be forcing yourself to be in a place you don't want to be because it's not of no interest.
[Chaya] [3260.24s] Maybe there are other solutions.
[Chaya] [3262.72s] Maybe there are other ways of resolving this issue.
[Craig Maier] [3266.14s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [3266.94s] Because if it's an for if it's an important meeting that's not not interesting and I don't really have to be there, could you just, you know, like, record it on Zoom and send me the link, and then I can just watch it on fast forward?
[Craig Maier] [3281.06s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [3281.94s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [3282.34s] It's like, you know, it's like that.
[Craig Maier] [3284.58s] Right?
[Craig Maier] [3284.82s] But Now you can Yeah.
[Chaya] [3286.26s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [3286.50s] I know.
[Chaya] [3286.90s] Now you can send AI bots to meetings,
[Craig Maier] [3289.91s] And they Exactly.
[Chaya] [3290.95s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [3291.36s] They take down the notes for you.
[Chaya] [3293.28s] You don't have to be there.
[Craig Maier] [3294.95s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [3295.11s] I don't have to be there.
[Craig Maier] [3296.88s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [3297.20s] I mean, so there there are lots of things that that that could be helpful for me.
[Craig Maier] [3300.96s] You know?
[Craig Maier] [3301.68s] There's knowing what is, you know, at which, of course, is the mean wow.
[Craig Maier] [3305.84s] Zoom fatigue.
[Craig Maier] [3306.72s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [3307.20s] Just some of the transcripts.
[Craig Maier] [3308.72s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [3309.34s] That would be genius.
[Craig Maier] [3310.95s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3311.51s] So it definitely sounds like people would find, like, a lot of value in your coaching specifically in the in the way you go about things because it is always about, like, getting down to the roots of of any quote, unquote goal, and sometimes the goal is just finding your goals.
[Mike] [3325.11s] You know, I've been in sessions where it's, a before the next one, can you come back and come back with a goal?
[Mike] [3331.28s] Like, you're not helping me find it, you know, so I'm not coming back.
[Mike] [3334.95s] I hate that.
[Mike] [3335.83s] It's putting all the work on the person.
[Mike] [3337.43s] And when you're dealing with a neurodivergent individual, they are definitely probably going to have no idea.
[Mike] [3345.78s] They know they want 1.
[Mike] [3347.21s] They know they want a goal.
[Mike] [3348.66s] They just don't know how to get there.
[Mike] [3350.66s] They don't know what the first step is.
[Mike] [3352.17s] They they don't.
[Mike] [3352.97s] They they just haven't figured it out yet.
[Mike] [3354.41s] You're supposed to be there to take the journey with
[Craig Maier] [3356.65s] them.
[Craig Maier] [3357.21s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [3357.45s] Yeah.
[Craig Maier] [3357.77s] And I'm sorry.
[Craig Maier] [3358.57s] Wow.
[Craig Maier] [3358.89s] That sounds that that sounds very shaming too.
[Mike] [3362.42s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3362.74s] No.
[Mike] [3363.14s] It is.
[Mike] [3363.94s] These are people I do not recommend.
[Mike] [3366.03s] If you ever hear that in a therapy session or coaching session, oof, that's not a good way to go.
[Mike] [3371.78s] That's not somebody who's there with you.
[Mike] [3373.46s] That's someone who's just like, hey, can you do homework for me at that point?
[Mike] [3378.10s] You know?
[Mike] [3378.74s] And Yeah.
[Mike] [3379.56s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3379.88s] And, you know, at Spark launch, that's definitely something I don't think anyone is ever going to run into because it is specifically designed to avoid problematic histories that the professional sphere kind of has littered about.
[Mike] [3393.58s] And, if you're interested in booking Craig for a coaching assessment, you can go to sparklaunch.org and find out any information where can, people find you at on maybe, like, social media or anything like that?
[Craig Maier] [3407.12s] I'm on LinkedIn.
[Craig Maier] [3408.64s] So you which is how Chaya and I met.
[Craig Maier] [3411.60s] We we I'm on LinkedIn.
[Craig Maier] [3413.12s] I'm I post frequently there and you can also find my website.
[Craig Maier] [3417.86s] It is www.craigmaier.com.
[Mike] [3423.82s] Awesome.
[Mike] [3424.14s] And, I'll also make sure to put all those links into the show notes.
[Mike] [3427.58s] So if anybody just wants to head over there, Chaya, where can everybody find you at?
[Chaya] [3432.39s] At sparklaunch.org and also on Instagram, The_Spark Launch, and Facebook at The Spark Launch, also by my name, Chaya Mallavaram.
[Chaya] [3442.79s] You can look me up, and you can get in touch with me on anything neurodivergent.
[Chaya] [3448.74s] I would love to talk about it.
[Mike] [3450.51s] Great.
[Mike] [3451.07s] And as for me, you can find me on LinkedIn, on Instagram @followshisghost.
[Mike] [3457.54s] And also, if you go to the bio of, particularly the Instagram, you can find information for my neurodivergence social support group called Motley Minds that is being launched with Forum.
[Mike] [3469.59s] So if you wanna sign up or are interested in hearing more about that, just send me a message there.
[Mike] [3475.11s] 1st month of meetings is completely free, by the way, so feel free to sign up whenever you want.
[Mike] [3479.91s] As for this episode of the Spark launch podcast, thank you for joining us.
[Mike] [3484.70s] We really appreciate your support.
[Mike] [3486.13s] See you next time.