Walk The Strong Path: Compassion Breeds Resilience w/ James Dewar-Haggart

Mike: 00:00:31

Hello there, I'm Mike.

Chaya: 00:00:32

I'm Chaya.

Mike: 00:00:33

And today I want to welcome on James Dewar-Haggart.

Having spent his teens and twenties grappling with anxiety and depression, moving from country to country, bar to bar, he finally found a semblance of calm when he began coaching.

Twelve years later, he created Strong Path after his extensive experience working in commercial gyms and running his own brought the realization the neurodivergent community was often overlooked in fitness settings. It they were at best an afterthought or at worst, not considered at all.

Strong Path provides a space where their needs are prioritized and addressed, ensuring an inclusive and supportive fitness environment for all. Welcome on the show, James.

James: 00:01:13

Oh, hi. Thanks, guys. Yeah, thanks for having me excited.

Chaya: 00:01:16

Thank you for coming on the. On our podcast. James, how did the days of going from bar to bar and depression look like?

James: 00:01:26

It's a real hard one, isn't it? I think the.

When you're in your late teens and twenties, I think that because going from bar to bar, especially back then, was commonplace and, you know, I don't necessarily rang too many alarm bells for many people. I think they just saw me as a really gregarious kind of person that liked party.

But actually, you know, what was going on was I was deeply, deeply depressed and I numbed the depression with alcohol or drugs, in all honesty, or, you know, I covered up the anxiety with, with, with drugs or alcohol.

So it was kind of a perpetual state of, you know, it is really survival and weirdly, it's survival mixed in with some of that other kind of stuff that was going on.

So, you know, hormonally speaking, you know, I was young, full of testosterone, and, you know, probably seeking the same sort of validation that most, you know, most gender males kind of go through at that kind of stage. And I think that that mixed with all the rest of it was, was just a bit of a disaster, to be honest.

Chaya: 00:02:23

So you didn't have any guidance, so you were seeking solution on your own. And the closest thing that access was alcohol to numb the pain.

James: 00:02:34

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I think the, you know, I think it's a really. It's funny looking back, actually. So, you know, once I was diagnosed.

Well, first off, I. I was told when I was a child that I was probably. I probably had ADHD after my dyslexic test, but it was never furthered up. We never.

We never went any further than that. And I think the. The interesting thing was I remember when I took lots of drugs, mainly stimulants, actually, for me, ironically. I remember I'm quite.

I'm quite small. I'm only about 5 foot 5. At the time, I would have weighed around about 60 kg.

I can't tell you what that is in pounds, but small, really small, small man. And I remember everyone being amazed at the amount of drugs I used to be able to take and, you know, not really be that affected by it.

I even had people in the pub tell me they'd realized, you know, I said I'd had some cocaine and they turned around and said, wow, but you're more normal than you are normally. Do you know what I mean? So there were like loads of little kind of snippets about what was going on, but, yeah, it was using that kind of dampener.

Okay. I would.

I'd probably say so that kind of, you know, repressing lots of feelings and thoughts and, you know, probably trying to process my own trauma and didn't know how to. And I suppose, yeah, that's kind of what led me to. To using substances. I mean, whilst I use them.

I was kind of always fairly in control, or as much as you can be when you're kind of living that sort of lifestyle. Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't positive and, you know, in hindsight, it was very painful.

Chaya: 00:03:55

ADHD shows up in many forms, so it's not just education, it's not just studying. So when you got diagnosed when you were younger, it was more probably related to. With schoolwork and things like that.

But the emotional angle of it was not adverse.

James: 00:04:13

No, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. And actually, I mean, you know, I had a hard childhood and, you know, there was abuse in there and other things.

And I think that, you know, one of the things that I'm learning now, and there's a lot of science to.

There's been a few papers and stuff published that says that childhood trauma actually exacerbates ADHD symptoms and can then have a huge impact on the adult life of someone with, you know, a person with adhd. And I think that, you know, I am literally. I mean, if you wanted a picture of what that looked like, I think I would, you know, I would sit in it.

Pretty.

Mike: 00:04:47

Yeah, pretty.

Chaya: 00:04:48

Well, yeah. Nobody talks about this, right? You, you talked about how it amplifies your adhd.

Because I think we are highly emotional beings and, and nobody really talks about emotions and human values and how to be a good person. So.

So instead of that, we are taught to study and get good grades and make money and things like that, but not about how to contribute to this world meaningfully. And we all have that inner need inside of us to do something, right? And I think that's the part that we are all we struggle with when we are younger.

Especially. Especially a child who still hasn't figured out how to verbalize how to speak their thoughts and feelings.

James: 00:05:41

And especially, I think that kind of, you know, I mean, from my perspective, I wasn't allowed to, so I didn't really have a voice. And I learned that quite quickly that it was best not to probably have a voice. It was, it was safer.

So I put that safe, you know, that technique in front of myself. I think the other thing is, is.

And I think it's probably worth mentioning is I don't know what it's like in the States, but I think that historically, or at least kind of when I was growing up, there is still that lag of Victorianism, you know, that kind of stiff upper lip, you know, kind of avoidance that mental health really was. Was existed. And I think that, you know, showing emotion was, you know, it was frowned upon. And I think that also, you know, in that it was.

I hope it's getting better. I really believe it is getting better. I think that, you know, I talk to my child about emotions all the time because I think it's really important.

But when I was growing up, I think that, you know, especially for boys at that time, you know, you were supposed to be hard and tough and, you know, not necessarily sensitive and all the other things. And I think that while most of us are, I think sadly we're taught, you know, socially to turn. That will not turn it off, but to hide it.

And as we all know, we hide things and we put them in boxes and, you know, shove them away, they tend to get bigger, you know, and they tend to outgrow that box. And at some point, you know, it's going to come out and it seeps out into other areas of life or potentially explodes and comes out like.

So it's, it's.

I think that, you know, I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, the time in which we're brought up and what generation and kind of what impact that has on moving forward.

Chaya: 00:07:07

You, you brought about a great point because we bottle up our feelings and then it's going to grow and grow and grow and it's going to explode. And that's when people are going to notice when it explodes and you're going to get punished for that explosion.

Whereas you've been crying all along, but nobody listens. But when that explosion happens, the whole world looks at it and they say, let's medicate him, put him away, put them away. And that. So unfair.

James: 00:07:36

Yeah, I think that, I think that you hit the nail on the head and I think that probably what's the interesting point is, is that, you know, that person that's crying. So, you know, I found childhood and like, you know, a good 30 years of my life I found, you know, very lonely actually.

You know, I had friends and stuff, but kind of, you know, not.

It's funny, people always think that I'm really open because I am open about stuff, I will talk about it, but actually I've learned that I'm that open to actually put a shield up. So no one really kind of goes past that point because they're like, oh, wow, you know, he's already disclosing all this stuff.

Well, I'm not going to go push any further, but I think that what you said in the sense that you have this, you know, an impact or an event that happens when, when that, that box explodes. What's interesting is, is from the viewer.

All right, well, you're just seeing a completely irrational kind of behavior, really irrational response to something. You're like, wow, this guy's this girl, this person is.

Oh, you know, like, it's probably quite shocking to watch, but ultimately, you know, that person is. Isn't, that isn't just a one time thing. We all know, you know, there is a thing called cause and effect.

And, and you know, after a while, you know, something's, something's going to happen. But yeah, I think that it is judged upon that event rather than saying, well, actually, how did that, what was the journey?

What, what did that look like? Because ultimately, in my experience, you know, I mean, if you look at the, you look at the UK prisons system, I think 50% is dyslexic. Okay, so 50%.

There's another, I can't, I haven't worked.

But there will be a huge percent of ADHD in there and there will Be, you know, people with autism in there and there will be, you know, stories of abuse and this, that and the other. And it's actually in my opinion a failing of society that we've allowed things to get to this point.

And I think also again, this is a very kind of UK kind of based thought.

You know, we look at our neighbors, so especially the Scandinavian countries, they do things so, so differently in terms of looking at therapy and you know, seem to be forward thinking and ultimately they have much, much lower crime rates and everything else than we do here.

But I do think that our society just isn't geared up for us and then they're not geared up for when we explode and ultimately they weren't there to protect us before that point anyway. So it's a hard one and I think it's a really hard one for people with ADHD because it's such a common theme. You know, it's, you hear it all the time.

Chaya: 00:09:48

Yeah, I think the society wants us to be perfect. Right. They're focusing on behavior, but nobody really cares what's going on inside, especially with children. And that's why empathy is so important.

Because if you don't understand the child and don't understand why the child is throwing a tantrum or why is the child angry, why is the child crying, why is the child jumping and actually don't look at it as a mistake and punish that child and we can, we can be a much better society and produce better adults.

James: 00:10:25

No, no, absolutely. I mean, if you think about it, I mean what you're doing is you're, you're, you're telling a child off of feelings.

You're teaching that child to then repress those feelings or cover those feelings or hide those feelings. Those feelings aren't going anywhere. You know, they're just going to amplify and you know, it will have a knock on effect to society.

But I think that society at the moment is in, I think that kind of, no one's really that.

I mean, everyone says they're interested about change and stuff like that, you know, but I think the actual change takes time and takes effort and I think that it's going to take effort on a much grander scale than it currently is. And I think that, you know, I think we all need to communicate better and be open to hearing things from other people.

I know when we had our conversation before today, you know, I remember you said something, I think I said I disagreed with it.

But I also then threw the caveat of I don't Know if I'm going to disagree with it in two weeks time though, because actually it's only through communications and talking do we get to further and better our own opinions and grow as people, you know, and we.

Mike: 00:11:26

Live right now in a time where the exact opposite is mostly happening.

Or if you disagree with something, most people tend to double down on what they maybe are being told is something that could be potentially incorrect or rejecting new information that's presented at them or any number of things. And I think we're going back to men and suppressing their, and being told to suppress their emotions.

I think we're living kind of in the post apex of that right now where we've really hit a high point in seeing the repercussions of that box that masculinity has very much shoved into. And the overall harm to, I think the cultural zeitgeist and osmosis and consciousness that's going on is perpetuated by saying, you know, you, you.

Yes, a thing that naturally happens as part of being human and having a consciousness and brain, you're not supposed to talk about that. That's for somebody else to deal with. And whenever they have that problem, it's a problem, you know, it's emotions are wrong to have.

That's not part of what being functional is actually about.

And that is something that greatly perpetuates horrible mental illness problems and perpetuates creation of depression and extreme anxiety and you know, substance abuse or it comes out in violent ways, any number of things. And going back to kind of you being silenced as, as a child that obviously can grow into numerous things both like outwardly and inwardly.

I know for me I am very adept and have had to kind of grow out of making myself invisible in most situations.

And I was curious how you've gone about kind of like refinding that voice that was silenced and refining a way to actually express your emotions without having them dampened down.

James: 00:13:20

It's a really interesting question and there's really two answers, to be honest. So I think the first one for me was, which was really important was learning about anger because my experience of anger was anger.

It's absolute, you know, so I didn't really have a relationship with anger.

I actually was quite scared of anger, to be honest, because I didn't necessarily trust myself to be able to be angry and it be positive, you know, because obviously these emotions are there for a good reason.

And working through with, with my therapist, I've sat there and we've done a lot of work with this to the point that, you know, I can be angry and that doesn't mean rejection and it doesn't mean all of those sorts of things.

It doesn't mean necessarily, it doesn't mean harm because, you know, you can be angry and annoyed with someone, you know, it might be because you're, you're protecting a boundary. You know, you're saying, actually, no, you know what? That's, that's not right for me, or something like that.

So I think the first one was, and that was really difficult was, was to learn that anger is human, all right? It is quite healthy.

There's a reason we have it, and that actually it doesn't always need to be really destructive or violent or anything else like that. So that was a really kind of difficult lesson.

And, and that lesson, you know, I didn't, you know, it took me so long to learn because ultimately, you know, in my childhood that anger was, was scary. And, you know, I had to, you know, I had to do something to protect myself.

And normally, a bit like you, it was kind of trying to be a bit invisible or getting away from it. And that's, that's, yeah, that's, that's a hard, that's a hard lesson to learn.

The second lesson I learned is that, you know, I got really, really good at mirroring people. Like, really good. And, you know, I went to.

I can't remember which one's right because whilst I counted it, but I think I went to nine different schools and lived in, I think, 13 different houses before the age of 18. So I was constantly changing environments. And as a quite young child, I think I was quite placid.

And, you know, I had, I had health conditions as well. So they're small. I've always been small. So it was a kind of, you know, I wasn't this strong, you know, thing.

The thing that kind of I was, was I was quite happy in that kind of just placid, you know, placidness. But obviously after a while that invites bullies and it invites, you know, other kind of problems in terms of socially.

So with every school, and I remember doing this, I would leave one school and I would get to another school and I would work out what had caused me problems in the previous school in terms of what did I do that invited that and. Right, cool. What am I going to do to change so that can't happen now?

And actually, you know, like, what that actually looked like was from school to school to school to school, I got worse. As in, you know, maybe I was more aggressive in my, in the way that I carried myself.

Maybe it was, I was, I was, I mean, lots of truancy or you know, in terms of, by the end school, I had no respect. Well, it's not, I didn't respect teachers, but I worked out how to manipulate that situation to my benefit.

So, you know, like, if a teacher kind of told me off, I would get angry with them. Ironically, I actually wasn't angry. Like I was completely in control in my mind.

I was like, let's see what they do, you know, and actually I don't think you can do anything and that's going to put you on the back foot. And therefore I'm going to, you know, I'm going to storm off in this situation or whatever. I wasn't storming off. I knew what I was doing.

I was getting out of that situation because I didn't want to be there because I didn't want to be at school anymore. But it was through that kind of change that had, that that person ended up being created.

And the problem is, is that once you learn that skill as a child of moving from one place to another and then changing your personality to suit that place, what ends up we end up doing is you end up carrying that through. Right.

You just keep doing that to the point you get to put me, like I have literally no concept of who I am, you know, like I'm just putting on a different show for a different person.

I mean, it's been really useful work wise because I can pick out what someone wants me to be like and you know, I can give that to them in a lot of the cases. But more recently, and, and this is the nice thing is, is actually I'm kind of reconnecting with that placid self.

So, you know, I'm opening up more from a genuine place like, you know, to people that I love. I'm, I'm, you know, friends as well, not family. I've always told family I love them.

Friends I've been more open about, you know, I love you and that, you know, that's okay. That's okay for me to say it's okay for me to be vulnerable like that.

And I think they're not feeling the need to always have the bravado and ironically those masculine traits, you know, that you're. Yeah. You know, kind of drinking down the pub kind of thing. And that's been really nice actually.

It's, it's been like, okay it, for me anyway, it means that I walk away from Something maybe not anxious about it. Like, maybe I'm there going, you know what? Like, I am kind of who I am, and morals are something that are very important to me.

So actually I want to project myself as a person. I am not necessarily the person that everyone wants me to be because actually, I might not like the person everyone wants me to ultimately.

So, yeah, I don't know about. Answer that question or I've ranted on.

Chaya: 00:18:04

Yeah, no, which is great. I think. I think what we really have to aim at, and this is my theory, is to be in love with ourselves and to be proud of our inner self.

And so when you said it's about impressing myself, I completely resonate with that because it's not about other people. We really don't care what, what you think about me, right? It's about how I show up and is it really me? And so I'm actually on that topic, I'm.

I'm comfortable listening to my own podcast these days. Earlier, I'm like, oh, my God, my voice. I don't want to listen to it, right? Because in my heart, I knew it wasn't authentic.

But when you are authentic, you. You will be proud of yourself. So I think it's about just putting ourselves out there because our authentic self has sense of purity in it.

And I 100% believe that it will reach far and wide if we show up authentically and not as somebody else.

James: 00:19:09

I think it's really interesting. I listened to.

I told you the podcast I listened to from you guys, and one of the things that came up to me and I really liked it, was the notion that if you do something from, like, out of truth, right, and our passion and out of love for the thing that you're doing, especially someone that is adhd, then you can't really go wrong with it. And, you know, for me, that there's nothing truer.

And actually, I've got a friend I'm sitting here thinking about now, and this is a lesson really trying to get them to kind of, not less.

I'm trying to teach them because they know it, but I'm trying to get them to believe themselves a little bit more so that they can start making more decisions for themselves, opposed to for what everyone wants them to do.

But I think that, you know, in terms of kind of business and where I've been, you know, recently is I've had a few ideas over the years that, you know, I've spoken to, you know, people that I trust and I care or I respect from, From A business perspective, and they're like, yeah, this is a great idea. And then I sit down and thought about it, and I've sat on one. It doesn't really kind of float my boat. Let's say it's business to business work.

So working with another business in terms of coaching, like consultancy.

Yeah, I mean, I've done a little bit of it and we kept on looking at it and there's a lot of money to be made, but I just don't really care, you know, like, it doesn't fill me with a desire and it doesn't kind of thing. And I think that actually, you know, you said that before, but I think it's really, really true.

I think that if you make decisions based on, you know, your actual feelings and your actual thoughts and your kind of actual desires, then the likelihood of success is so much, so much higher.

Chaya: 00:20:35

You know, if you don't focus on money and really authenticity. I have a similar story. Just really quick. I had this business, fashion business.

I'm an artist, and I would print my art on scarves and sell them, and then I wanted them in these larger, bigger stores. And so I realized, oh, this is a different game. So I went to B2B conference in Vegas and I walked the floors.

And that's when I realized, oh, my God, I don't want to be in this game because it's dog eats dog. It's not as pretty as it looks outside on the model. So. So. And then I question myself, who am I? I'm really an artist. I want to create.

And if I had gone into that part of the business, it would have taken me away from my purpose. So it's really important if you to sit with the emotions and actually walk that path a little bit in your imagination before jumping into it.

James: 00:21:42

I think the other thing is if you put yourself out there and you do something that you really want to do and you give it a go, it doesn't work. You tried, you know, and ultimately, you know that it didn't work. And that's okay because you did your best and you move on. I think the.

You know, I said this to this same friend I'm hoping. I know he'll listen to. But there's a whole point of a realization a few years ago for me that so many people. This is really sad, right?

Will be lying on their deathbeds. You know, they're lucky enough and fortunate enough to get to old age.

They'll be lying on their deathbeds and they're miserable like Straight up, they'll look back and they'll just been, you know, all they can say is, I can form. I conformed to what society or what someone wanted me to do, and I didn't necessarily live it for myself.

And I think that that's desperately sad that anyone could get to that point in life and go, right, that's it. You know, wow, that's it. I'm.

I'm at the end of the road and I'm looking back and I was in a, you know, I don't know, I was in a relationship I wasn't happy with. You know, I had a job I hated and everybody connected with my kids. You know, I wasted this time.

And you sit there and you think to yourself, that is desperately sad. But also that I would. I would fear what the percentage of that is actually, you know, real for a lot of people. And I think that, you know, by.

By putting yourself first and sitting there and saying, you know what, I'm going to do this, and let's see where it goes. I think that, you know, you're only setting yourself up for success in one of many ways.

I think the other thing is, is that with society and something I've learned is that, you know, we talk about risks and we talk about, oh, you know, oh, you don't want to do that. You don't do that because you can end up bankrupt or you're going to end up here. And, you know, like, we're terrified of these things.

But actually, like, I mean, I'm not saying to people to go and get bankrupt at all, by the way. That's not something at all.

But actually, like, I've been in financial difficulty with the business after the pandemic, and, you know, I was terrified of getting into that place. And then when I got in that place, I was like, oh, still the same as the other place. It's just I can't afford something at the moment.

I mean, like, I think that we're taught to face so many different things that all to kind of stop us from moving forward and doing what we desire to, because sadly, I don't think. I don't think the whole world wants people to achieve and to move forward. You know, I think that's threatening for them or something else.

Chaya: 00:23:44

Yeah, I think society, we do a lot for the society. It's. It's these invisible rules that the society has laid upon us, but the society is not going to come and help us when we are in trouble. So.

James: 00:23:59

No, quite, you know, absolutely.

I mean, you Know, my work at the moment predominantly focuses on autism, you know, and if you look at society and, you know, autistic people, I mean, they've hugely been let down. Perception, you know, like, opportunities, barriers, all sorts of stuff.

And it's, you know, it's one thing I keep coming up with is this thing that, you know, when we think about society and we think about it, I was doing everything for society and, you know, living our life that way. Well, you know, you look at the neurodivergent community, all right, there is so much pain, okay?

So much pain, so much suffering, so many bad experiences. And it makes me quite upset talking about it now.

If we look at times of trouble, okay, it's the same people who are struggling now that come to the rescue and, you know, say things. And we can absolutely say that. You know, like, let's look at Alan Turing, for example.

You know, the enigma, you know, he sat there and saves, you know, saves, like, you know, Western culture as we know it, you know, and later on, we. We lock him up for being gay and you're like. And we don't accept him for who he is and all of those things. And it's just like, wow.

And half the time, and I'm ranting now, we don't like someone because of the way they communicate. Well, that's not the person who's communicating's fault is the person who's listening.

You know, unless that person's saying it from an aggressive manner, which in my experience, it never has been. Then if you don't like what someone.

Someone's saying to you, then maybe you need to check in with yourself about why you don't like what they're saying and what the reality is for you, opposed to kind of always putting those ideas on other people. It's. Yeah, it's a funny. It's a funny world at the moment, I think, you know, I find it. Yeah, I find it quite scary.

I think that, you know, all of the social media and everything that's going on, I don't think. I don't think any of us are living in the real world.

I think we're all living in this polarized version of someone else's world that they want us to kind of buy into, you know, which. Which, yeah, it's a bit weird living.

Mike: 00:25:45

On the edge of something we can't quite place yet. Moments in history you look back on, and this has to be what it felt like before. Some sort of climactic change in some form. You know, I.

This may Be like a little bit extreme. But Germany between World War I and.

James: 00:26:02

I'm thinking the same thing.: 1939

Mike: 00:26:06

And that was actually. And for Germany socially was actually a really incredible time, briefly. And actually because of that, you know, cut to five years later.

And the same things that were in newspapers or the gay community was actually very huge in Germany during those times. That thing we pretend didn't exist, like, till five years ago or something.

And it was, like, very mainstream to the point that it was actually kind of lionized by other countries as like, oh, that's that German social thing, as if they only existed in Germany or.

James: 00:26:39

Something, as we all know.

Mike: 00:26:41

Yeah. And one of the first things that were burned by the Nazis were gender studies. Like, those were some of the first books that were burned.

And we kind of just don't pay attention to that in, like, the grand scheme of things and then see a lot of similar things happening now.

James: 00:26:57

Yeah, no, it's. It's insane. I mean, you know, I grew up in.

I grew up in the 80s and 90s, and the thing that kind of always struck me was that we were being more forward thinking, you know, so when I was at school, if you'd come out, you know, or if you were part of the LGBTQ AI, you know, community, your life wouldn't have been worth living. You would have been beaten up, you would have had, you know, it would have been really, really bad.

And as I get older, I'm sitting there saying, oh, actually this is cool. Like, you know, the first time in an English soap, two men have kissed. I'm like, awesome.

Oh, you know, because if you're offended by that, like, you need to talk to someone because there's something else going on, you know, like two people loving each other is to be loving each other, whatever that looks like for that person, you know. But I did, I sat and I was seeing this. Oh, this is all going well. It's going really well. It's going really well.

And then the last kind of five, five, maybe 10 years, it's all started going a little bit wayward. And, you know, you see, like, in Europe at the moment and arguably in the US you can disagree.

I don't know enough because I don't live there, but you see this right, right wing, like, rhetoric just, just, just coming through the whole place. And, you know, it's. It's really scary because, you know, it will have a massive impact on a lot of people.

And one of the things I think is, like, you Know, the saddest thing is that I think social media is just giving this absolute polarized view of things. I mean, you know, the algorithms have been set up so that you just see what you're into.

Well, you know, if you're a right wing bigot, the only thing you're going to see is other right wing bigots. And that's a problem because then there's not, there's no communication happening, in which case we're all deep. But I think that, you know, it's sad.

I think that I always bang on about critical thinking. All right? So, you know, when I see something or I read something, you know, I like to think of it critically.

I like to sit there and say, okay, well, what is the likelihood that this is right? What are the, you know, what potentially be different?

You know, because ultimately whatever you read is a view, you know, in terms of that sort of like media, it's an opinion, but it's the amount of people that don't want to challenge it, you know. You know, or, you know, I hear things all the time. I read it on Facebook because you read it on Facebook. It's true. You know, it might be true.

Don't get me wrong.

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying it's normal, but no one really wants to sit there and talk or, you know, at least question the sort of stuff they're reading and things. And you know, I think that that's scary because it churns, doesn't it? There's, there's this churning of that kind of right wing agenda.

And the other thing I've noticed, and I don't know if this is right, it seems to be aimed at disadvantaged communities, all right, where potentially the school systems on, you know, don't have the same sort of budgets as other school systems. You know, they maybe don't have, you know, education and all the rest of it.

And you sit and you think, wow, like, we're not going to try and stop this. Are we not going to try and step in and just say, look, you know what I mean? We're beyond this. We're not, we're not this, we're not this anymore.

We don't need to be this, you know, I mean, if you look at war, who benefits from war? A tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of a percent of people will benefit from war.

And those people are normally happy to watch, you know, other people get sent to their deaths and all that horrific stuff. It's just, yeah, it blows my Mind if I'm honest, I sit there, I think, wow, like, you know, where we're at at the moment is.

Is, you know, it's not great. But on the flip side, I will say one thing about that kind of subject we had in. In the UK recently, the far right.

So I think it was Britain first or one of those kind of. They cast themselves political parties, but they're not. They started taking to the streets, you know, again, anti immigration.

And, you know, and as at one point certain celebrities from the US were getting involved in saying, oh, there's going to be a civil war in England and all the rest of it. And first of all, I found it hilarious.

I was like, no, it's not like I got loads of friends in all different communities, economic, you know, like all communities, none of us are sitting there hating on each other as much as you're making out that we do. But the best thing was, and the best thing I saw was in the uk, Brighton is probably the gay capital of the uk and I found this hilarious.

So a lot of these, like, jobs, as we call them, so balaclava and, you know, preaching hate, wanting to riot. White men, I think, turned up and tried to start this riot in Brighton.

And as soon as I heard it, I was like, this is brilliant because I know Brighton is one of the most liberal cities in the world and there is no way that that's going to fly down there.

And the most amazing thing happened, and it happened across the uk, Anti protesters turned up and said, no, you're not writing, no, you're not preaching this hate. We want love, unity and respect for everyone and that. And I suddenly went, you know, counter argument to the fact that it's going dark.

There is still, you know, there is a divide in it, but there were, at least in this occasion, you know, lots and lots of people that turned up and said, no, thanks, you can go away now with your hate. You know, you can go over there, we're not going to hurt you, we're not going to bother with you. We don't need to do that.

That's not part of what we want to do. But we don't want to accept, you know, narrative you're trying to force upon us. So, yeah, yeah, it's.

Mike: 00:32:04

It's really hard right now to not feel like love is essentially the minority, but it is truly the opposite. It just happens to be that it's made to look like hate is the majority because of love.

A lot of people that are in power in some way profit from that. So they are able to skew that perspective.

And then when you actually see it on the street, you see it active, you know, what the difference between the two actually are and what one is capable of versus what the other is capable of.

James: 00:32:36

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think that. And I think that's a really good point. I think that, you know, I think Mike Tyson says something that was quite funny.

He said it was on the lines of you're all kind of prepared behind a keyboard to have a go at everyone and speak like, you know, horrifically. He says, but back in my day, if you've done that to someone's face, you got punched in the face and, you know, and you wouldn't have done it.

And I think there's some truth to that, that. That we're creating this through social media and for other things like this. This space where, you know, people.

People that are probably sad, you know, let's face it, right? I'm not saying sad as in. I'm saying they're sad, emotionally sad. You know, they've probably got, you know, mental health issues.

There's probably a, you know, loads of stuff going on for them.

And yet they get dragged into this thing and then they're, you know, they feel that the release or the right thing to do is to push out this, you know, this, this.

This whatever kind of hate, you know, and it's sad because actually maybe that person just needs a little bit of help, you know, and the other sad thing is, is that people aren't, you know, they don't want to admit that if someone's preaching all this stuff and everything, just look, what. What are they getting from it? You know, And I'm talking from the top down here.

If someone's, you know, telling you to hate that person and do this and do that. Why? Because ultimately, if you look deep enough, you'll probably find that they're gaining something from it.

But people seem to blindly believe things these days rather than questioning.

Chaya: 00:33:55

You're absolutely right. I think more people need to wake up to the truth of love and, and not just blindly listen to someone and just do it for the sake of doing it.

And question everything, question the why and understand it and. And have their own opinion and be brave to shift opinions as well.

Because, yeah, I was maybe hating one part of the community before, but that's because I was unawakened, right? You need to question yourself and then. And then change. Be brave to change your opinion. And. And I think that's how we going to all evolve.

I think that's a process of human evolution.

James: 00:34:42

Yeah, I think everyone's, I think everyone's going to get neurodivergent and it's all going to be okay. Maybe with the evolved state. I don't know. That would make me chuckle if that was the case.

Mike: 00:34:50

It would improve things greatly, honestly. Yeah, right.

Chaya: 00:34:54

Because if you really look at it, what is, you know, if people who are following the rules of the society are considered neurotypical and people who are the outliers are neurodivergent, they think differently, they, they're non linear thinkers. So. So if that's the big difference of your minds.

James: 00:35:15

Yeah, no, I totally agree.

I mean I've got, I keep thinking about the theory of the fact that you know, if you look at human beings and you look kind of like unnearly relative speed, our near relative species. So you're thinking of the chimps and, and other kind of apes.

You know, we weren't, we weren't, we didn't start off living in huge, you know, colonies of joining countries and all the rest of it.

We would probably be like 40 individuals and you know, we would have a certain area and then they're you know, a while away, there'd be another 40 individuals and the rest of it.

And it's really interesting theory that, you know, if you think that potentially one in seven, all right people is neurodivergent, there's some description. I personally believe that that makes sense because you know, we got 40 people. Okay, all right.

You're going to need some people in there that are going to be able to go out and do the, the gathering, you know, so they're going to be going out and picking fruits and you know, all of that sort of stuff. And that's quite laborious. Okay, that's quite going to take time. It's time conducive.

You need people that are going to be able to deal with that really well. You're going to need a lot of them as well because. Because the reward is, is probably a little bit less.

You're going to need people that are going to work out how to build you know, makeshift homes and, or habitat makeshift homes and stuff like that. And then you need people that are really good with dopamine that can go out and kill things. Sorry, I just kind of free that one.

But it makes sense that we would be in there because that would be look like a successful group of, of, of beings. You know. And I think that that that is where we're At.

I think that it's just that we're in terms of society, we just got so much bigger and we've taken over so much stuff. And, you know, we're all working as farmers now because we like a 9 to 5 and yeah, I don't think it works for us. But yeah, I think if.

If the whole world is neurodivergent, think it'd be a better place. I actually. This is gonna sound really weird, actually. Think of the whole world autistic. I think the world will be a bad.

I have genuinely never come across a single autistic person that I didn't like, that wasn't nice, wasn't kind. And, you know, I think actually let's. Let's just aim for that maybe.

Chaya: 00:37:05

Yeah.

James: 00:37:06

Although it is true. No, it is true. It is true. I mean, we should celebrate individualism, of course, as well. Put that in there. But yeah, it's. It's.

Yeah, society's in a mess. Yeah.

Mike: 00:37:17

And that's why it's important to do.

I think there's this incorrect dream that, you know, it's going to take one person coming along and doing one great thing that will kind of prop everything up and that will be the foundation when really it does take everybody in their own way doing whatever may seem small, but in some way it is adding to the greater purview of making things just a little bit better than they were yesterday.

And like, with what you're doing with Strong Path and with the neurodivergent community, you know, that is definitely something that is along those lines, that is filling a gap that needs to be filled and just trying to make things a little bit better for, for the people who are being misaligned with the rest of society.

James: 00:38:01

Yeah.

I think that, you know, with the stuff that we do at the moment, one of the things I'm really passionate about is the, in my experience, our community. Okay. So the neurodivergent community, wherever you sit in that is. Is massively. How do I explain this?

If you ask, if you ask a neurotypical person down the street or that's middle class, you know, been to school, had a. I'm not going to say an easy life, because no life is an easy life, but, you know, had a. Had a decent life. All right. We asked them to describe what.

What, what each one of our, you know, things is. There's a skewed vision of it. You know, like, there's a really, like, if you ask someone, you know, what does autism look like?

Or what does ADHD look like their response would not be correct or I wouldn't be anywhere near correct.

Because ultimately I think the, you know, autism in particular is coupled with a few other conditions just because it happened to be that some people with autism have, some autistic people have those conditions as well and stuff like that. But yeah, I think that, you know, in my gym, right, the reason why the whole thing started was because I am and very proud to be inclusive, right?

Absolutely inclusive. That means it doesn't matter who walks through the door, it doesn't matter.

Gender doesn't matter, age doesn't matter, sexual orientation, it doesn't matter. You know, neuro conditions, you know, or neurodiverse.

So whatever it is, you walk through the door, you will get treated with respect, kindness, and ultimately as an individual, okay? Because the one thing that I very much realize is that we are all different, okay?

You know, whether in terms of physical coaching, we will have different limb lengths, different torso lengths, different hip widths, different. Does that make sense?

Like we're all different and actually what a movement or what you looks for you is going to look a little bit different from person to person. And you allow that.

And then, you know, over those, over the years of doing it, I kept on, kind of just happened to coach, you know, people that were neurodivergent. And, you know, it got to a point now where we're probably about 40 or 50% maybe, neurodivergent, neurotypical.

But the interesting thing is, and this is the really messed up thing about the world at the moment is why does it work where I work? Where I work, and it doesn't work hardly anywhere else. And I can't, you know, I can tell you why.

But I can't believe we've got to the stage where this is the reason I care. This is that simple. I care and I care that the person that comes through the door has a positive experience and is looked after.

And I care that the other members treat that person with respect and care and love, right? And that fosters an environment where anyone can succeed. All right?

And you know, the amazing thing is if you came into my gym, I've got, you know, women in their 50s and 60s deadlifting more than any woman in a commercial gym. You know, they'd be like, oh, my God, if I. It's funny, I've got ladies that train with me that they're stronger than their sons, you know, or thing.

So it's not that the training even is any different to what they would do anywhere Else, it's purely the approach. And the approach is, you know, love. You know, like, welcome. Do you see the Abbey? There's a. There's a case study with Abby.

Abby's an awesome, awesome human being.

But we were in the gym once and two new people came in, and actually, it turned out that they, like, they'd been in their past, and she might not have had necessarily the most positive memory of them, should we say? And I could see that she was having a bit of sensory overload, and, you know, there was tension building up.

So I kind of took her aside and I said, you know, what's going on? Because I can tell something's going on, but I can't. I can't place it, all right? I don't know what it is. And she said, you know, that one of.

One of the new people was friends with or someone that was bullying her as a child, right, because of her Tourette's and her autism. And I looked at her and I said, if they say anything or they do anything, what will I do? And she turned around, said, I don't know.

And I said, I'll kick him out. I said, there's a door there and they can use it, because that's not acceptable.

But ironically, one of the people that she said this about has a condition as well, all right, that, you know, Abby didn't necessarily know about. And this condition meant that she didn't like showing her arms and was constantly wearing a jumper. All right?

Now, one of the first things I said, oh, you need to take that jumper off. You're going to boil. It was back in the summer. She was like, I can't, I can't. And actually, I said, no, you can.

I said, and whatever's going on, you're not going to be judged, right? I'm not here for that. That's not what we do. Anyway, it turns out she has a skin condition, and she took her jumper off.

And again, I took it to the side and I said, look, I said, first off, you've got nothing to be ashamed about or you don't have to hide anything here. No one will judge you based on what you think that they're going to judge you. And I promise you, and they don't, and they wouldn't.

It just happens that one of the guys, their daughter has the same condition.

And I actually got him over really quickly and said, hey, you know, and he then started talking to her about it in the sense that, oh, we managed to find this, that worked. And, you know, I Mean just kind of normalized it, because it doesn't need to be something that isn't normal. But I said to her, she said, oh.

And I remember saying to her, I said, look, if anyone ever says anything about that condition, I said, there's a door, right? And they'll walk through it. But that's the point. It's the same thing. It's the same thing for absolutely everyone. And I think the.

I don't understand why we can't have that universally. You know, why can't we have it that, you know, you just treat people with compassion, kindness, and, you know, that's all you need.

It literally is that simple. It's. It's. It's. You know, people have said to me before, my wife and I, because my wife's.

My wife's got a really cool job and she works very hard, and we were talking about the fact that kind of what makes someone really good at their job. And this guy comes back to you, actually, in the sense of doing what you love, it's care. If you absolutely care about what you do. All right? And.

And what I mean is, is not career progression. Not this, that. The other I'm talking about care about the actual thing. You know, if you're. If you're a meat packer, you care about how you. You.

You do. I mean, you do that job. If you. If you are tree surgeon, you care about how that happens.

You know, if you're in my job, you care about people and making sure that they get exactly what they need out of it. You can't go wrong. You literally can't go wrong. You will do brilliantly every single time.

But ultimately, I think that that's something that's missing. Yeah.

Chaya: 00:43:55

And it's up to us to align to what we care. Right. For instance, Mike edits our podcast, and it comes out so beautifully each and every time because he truly cares about it.

And when you truly care, even if somebody else gives an okay, you will not be okay. Right. So you're going to work till you feel that it's emitting this high vibration.

James: 00:44:20

Right.

Chaya: 00:44:20

Because we are putting out our product for you. It's your gym, whatever that is, for each one.

If we put our love to that thing, whatever that thing is, it's going to speak to itself, and that's how other people, the customers, are going to feel it. And I've never. This is the first time I'm hearing about emotions put into a gym environment, and every gym needs to be doing that.

James: 00:44:45

Yeah. Look at the premise I mean, other than, let's say 5% of gym users are the users that go there every day, twice a day.

You know, they're the ones that you look at and you go, man, I wish I look like that. I don't know like that. By the way I look at them, I go, oh, that's too much hard work. I can't. I don't. I don't want to look like that anymore.

I like beer and pizza far too much to, to warrant, like, that sort of life. But if you look at those 5 or 10% that go there, all right, they go there. They probably are actually really insecure, I will add right there.

So they're probably not kind of not out of the, out of the fire, if you will, but if you're going into a gym, it's to better yourself, all right? And nine times out of ten is because you don't feel good about something, all right? So, you know, emotion has to come into it.

You know, I work a lot in, you know, I've done loads of weight loss stuff over the years.

And actually what I like to do, and I genuinely mean this, is actually, I say to people, look, you know, the way you're at the moment, whatever you look like, you're never going to like what looks back at you in the mirror, all right? And I've seen it like so many, so many times, all right?

And actually, it's silly to go down that route because ultimately there's no ending to it, right? I've worked with. I work with a guy who's a bodybuilder. He's the same friend that I keep mentioning tonight. And, you know, I've seen him look amazing.

Like, absolutely amazing. You would sit there and think, wow, like, you know, he must look so good. And actually we ask him, he's got body dysmorphia. He doesn't like this.

That the other, you know, so, so the you, you know, you want to look like this.

My point is, is that actually working on yourself and working on loving yourself, you know, and, you know, looking at your body in the sense of how amazing it is, you know, it carries you through life. It's actually your brain that messes your body, you know, telling you that your body's wrong.

Well, actually, your body doesn't ever moan at you about stuff. I mean, it might hurt because you've put it through too much or whatever.

But, you know, loving that physical body in the sense that, you know, I'm strong. Look at when I work, I work with A lot of menopausal people. And one of the best things that we can do in that.

In that scenario, the bone density and other scientific reasons. But to say, look. Look at what your body can do, that's amazing. How cool is that?

Like, you're strong, you know, Like, I think emotion really ties into what we do.

I'm not saying it's therapy, because I think that they're two separate things, and I think that there needs to be two separate things, but I think that we can build people up. But a lot of that says has to come from the now you're at the way you are. Yeah, you're okay. Yeah, we can. We can.

We can make you better, you know, we can make you lighter. That might help, you know, your cardiovascular health.

We can do all of these things, but ultimately you're okay with who you are before we do that, you know, and that. That doesn't sink in with anyone very quickly. It takes time, and maybe it never sinks in for anyone completely. But I think the.

Yeah, we need to step away from. From, you know, always trying to go for, you know, looking like something or whatever and starting with love. And that's why gyms is short. Short.

That's why gyms need to have emotion in them because, you know, ultimately everyone's there for probably an emotional kind of reason.

Mike: 00:47:42

I love that so much.

Speaking as someone who in the past struggled very much with orthorexia and dealt with that and survived that, that's very beautiful to know that's a very safe place for people to go and to not have that certain mindsets put in their heads, and it's a place where they can actually deal with some of those. Those feelings. Thank you so much for. For creating a place like that.

James: 00:48:07

Oh, no, no, no. It's my pleasure. Like, I love it. And remember, this is something everyone always finds funny at work because we. I.

I've worked with some of these people for eight years now. You know, like, I.

I know them really, really well, but I'm always full of words of wisdom and words of, you know, like, loving yourself and, you know, a lot of the psychological stuff.

And it always makes me chuckle because the reason why I say it, okay, and the reason why I act like that is because actually I'm trying to say that to myself, you know, and that's. That's the reality. That is the absolute truth. So.

And I do find it funny because I'll sit there and say, you know, you need to care about yourself and, you know, love yourself more I might say you need to do some mindfulness, or you might need to do this, that, the other. Most of the time, it's because I want to do that myself, or at least I know I should be doing that myself.

Mike: 00:48:52

I think that's something that. A lot of us who kind of do similar work in this area. We have that in common.

It's both holding ourselves accountable to ourselves and also dealing with the fact it's really hard to say that stuff into a mirror, but we want to. We want to be able to say that to ourselves.

And by being able to convey it to other people, we're freeing ourselves from a lot of the mental shackles that have either been fastened to us by others or by ourselves.

James: 00:49:22

Yeah, I completely agree. You know, it's. It's. It's hard. You know, it is really hard. And it's. It's. It's life, isn't it? It's that experience.

You know, you don't get through it unscathed.

You know, you can be the wealthiest person in the world with, you know, absolutely everything, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be happy or, you know, that life is going to go well for you. I mean, it might go well for you in a. In a. In a financial kind of materialist kind of way.

But, you know, ultimately, I think that we all have to go through things. And, you know, maybe that's the beauty of it. You know, maybe that's the beauty of it. Like, you know, you look at me, I've been a horrible.

Well, not hard. They were good parts of my childhood, by the way. There were. There were lots of good parts, but there was.

There was certain parts of it that were quite bad. You know, I traveled around and I really enjoyed traveling in my 20s. Like, that was awesome. I partied. I actually really enjoyed some of that as well.

I'm not going to lie. Drugs. I really enjoyed the drugs at certain points. I'm not saying they were good for me or that, you know, it wasn't a huge risk.

Is it all that maybe down the road there's going to be some health problems from it? You know, that's true.

But I think that, you know, we're all on that kind of road and, you know, these bad things, they end up kind of pushing us towards something else. You know, I'm good at what I do because of my experience. And, you know, that, again, it comes back to that. Do what you love, you know. Yeah, it's all.

It all comes back around to that, you know, and if you love something, there's a good reason for him, that's probably a journey. That's kind of. Yeah, but you said.

Chaya: 00:50:42

Yeah, there's always meaning to our past. We don't know why we had to experience all this, all of that. Right. But.

But we are taking our experiences, all of us, our own personal experiences, and turning it into a positive thing for somebody else. And that is very satisfying.

James: 00:51:01

Yeah. I mean, it's about being accountable, isn't it?

You know, you're only ever accountable to really, well, two types of people, one, yourself, second, your children. In my opinion, that's who we're accountable for. And.

And that means that, you know, you always move forward, you always try and better yourself, in my opinion, like, I'm. I'm massively up for. Keep growing and. And, you know, also treat people as, you know, you'd want to be treated yourself. And I think that.

I think that's it, you know, one. One thing. And I know I'm going on. My nan died a few years ago, and she was probably one of the closest people I've ever had growing up.

She was there for me and my mom was there for me as well. But my nan was. This was hugely important. And my nan had a horrific life. You know, she.

She was left outside of a grocery store, I think, or something or other happened by a mum. And luckily that person knew her grandparents. And so the two of the grandparents. And she had a horrible time kind of through that. And then she got.

I think it was scarlet fever when she was, I'm guessing around 10, 11 years old. Then she was hospitalized for four years, which is pretty horrific. You know, ended up one leg longer than the other and lost.

I think it was my granddad and my. My great grandfather, who she was very close to, and then married my grandfather, who had a butcher's van. Right.

And got ripped off and lost his butcher's van. So he then moved back. So they're in Scotland, by the way. My family is Scottish.

He's moved from Scotland to England because that's the only place he can get a job. And my nan and four daughters went down and traveled down to them. And my grand.

They got a house with 100% mortgage at the time, which she can't get anymore, sadly. Then my granddad had an aneurysm and he died. And, you know, he was. He was in his early 40s. So there's my nan, and she's got all of this already.

And she's then got to bring up these four girls, she has two full time jobs, right. They want for nothing and she looks after them and she's so good at it.

Like some of their friends that aren't necessarily that well off go around to their house to eat, to my nan's house. And then later on, you know, she looks after me.

She gets cancer, she meets cancer and then finally she passes in Covid after some other horrific things that happened to her. The one thing that kind of always struck me was, was just how wonderfully human being she was.

She was always kind, she was always compassionate, she was put everyone else before herself. But the really lovely thing was when, when it was a funeral and died, it wasn't a bad word. Not one, not one from any single person, you know.

And I think that that just says a lot, doesn't it? You've got to, you know, you don't always get out. Well, you don't always.

You can put in a lot and sometimes, you know, the world will throw stuff at you that, you know, isn't fair. It's not fair. You don't deserve that and everything else. But I think that, you know, the mark is when you leave the world.

And if you can leave the world with everyone saying good things about you and leaving, you know, positivity behind you, then for me that's got to be the answer.

Chaya: 00:53:47

I agree 100%. And it's not just about career, right? It's like you're grandmother, it's, it's to her family, to people in her circle and that's all matters.

James: 00:53:59

You said something, you said something earlier and chai, what you just said, you said about everyone doing a little bit. Yeah, the end of it. The, the, the, the, the fixing of, of, you know, where we're at as a society is everyone doing their little bit.

Well, what you just said is, is that she looked after her own in her circle. She showed love and compassion and kindness in her circle. Maybe that is that change. You know, we just have to show it in our circle. Yeah, right.

And if everyone did it in their circle and all the circles of the world had that same thing look pretty cool, wouldn't it?

Chaya: 00:54:28

It's, that's exactly it. It's to our inner circle and. Yeah, yeah.

James: 00:54:34

And I think that, I think it's a really good point. You know, in your community, do what you can. That doesn't mean you don't get stuff as well.

Because look, we all, we all have needs, but ultimately we can all kind of look after each other properly rather than trying to better, you know, be better than one another thing or have faster cars or bigger houses or, you know, all of that stuff, then ultimately, you know, it could look a lot better. I always find it fascinating that you get places in the world that don't have 99th of what we have.

And actually my next door neighbor, Zambian, and he goes back to Zambia every now and again and they've got no shoes. Right. They make shoes out of tires. Yeah. They want nothing. And he says, but they're all happy.

What's going on there, you know, like you know what's going on there.

Mike: 00:55:14

Yeah, sometimes, sometimes it.

The less you have, for whatever reason, the happier that you, you are because you don't have all the affectations that are blinding you towards either your own happiness or taking you away from the happiness of others. Because at the end of the day all we can really do is just keep each other warm.

And that's what we're supposed to be doing, I think here on this planet. Like that's what we're doing is conscious thought. You know, all, all animals kind of protect their, protect their own in one way or another.

And the farther away we move to that, the more disorder society is at large. So I really want to thank you for really crystallizing that and the work that you are personally doing in your community at large.

And I hope there's that that your own personal circle kind of is able to get wider and wider from, from there. So thank you for doing that. Yes. And thank you for coming on the show and talking. This has been fascinating.

I've loved this and I want to give you a chance to tell everyone who's listening where they can find you and where they can contact Strong Path.

James: 00:56:19

So. Yeah, so Strong Path. The easiest one is the website. You can get all the socials from the website and is www.strongpath.org

Mike: 00:56:29

And I will put that all those in the show notes of course, everywhere you can contact them. We of course can always be found at sparklaunchpodcast.com and for myself, for Chaya and for James, we will see you next time.