Mike and Chaya sit down with Stéphane Mousseau, learning strategist and founder of LIX Learning, a framework designed to bring clarity, trust, and neuro-inclusive design to the world of digital course creation. Stéphane opens up about his own ADHD, the years he spent masking it in rigid corporate environments, and how the frustration of broken systems — at work and in learning — drove him to build something better.
Mike and Chaya sit down with Stéphane Mousseau, learning strategist and founder of LIX Learning, a framework designed to bring clarity, trust, and neuro-inclusive design to the world of digital course creation. Stéphane opens up about his own ADHD, the years he spent masking it in rigid corporate environments, and how the frustration of broken systems — at work and in learning — drove him to build something better.
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About Stéphane Mousseau:
Stéphane is a learning strategist who focuses on clarity, accessibility, and how people actually experience work and learning.
After years in corporate roles, ADHD was sometimes a challenge within systems that prized speed, ambiguity, and unspoken expectations. Rather than seeing this as a personal limitation, it became a signal. Instead of masking ADHD, Stéphane leaned into it and used it as fuel to question how learning and work are designed in the first place.
That experience led him to develop practical approaches for improving learning clarity and reducing cognitive overload. His work helps organizations evaluate how usable, accessible, and action-oriented their learning experiences really are, and redesign them so people can actually apply what they learn.
Alongside this, he facilitates neuro-inclusive leadership workshops, supporting leaders in creating clearer expectations, workflows, and communication practices that better support neurodivergent employees while improving performance and psychological safety across teams.
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[00:00:22] Mike: [00:00:00] Our guest today is Stéphane Mousseau, learning strategist and founder of LIX Learning a framework for making learning clear, more, trustworthy, and genuinely neuro inclusive. He's here to talk about clarity, A DHD, and why our systems need standards if we actually care about people. Welcome to the show.
[00:00:42] Stephane: Thank you, Mike. Thank you, Mike. Thanks for the nice introduction here.
[00:00:45] Chaya: Thank you Stefan. I remember we were just talking about this before the show. We met a year ago, and I remember. Our conversation and the enthusiasm and the optimism. So am so happy you [00:01:00] are here officially on the podcast.
[00:01:02] Chaya: I am so curious. What have you been up to? Since our last casual conversation over a year ago.
[00:01:11] Stephane: Wow. Thanks Shaya. First of all, thank you so much for inviting me today. It's a pleasure to be chatting with you and Mike. How to summarize the last year, you know, it's, a lot of things have happened, but I still remember the chat that we had together, just casual conversation, like a meet and greet that we just did together because we.
[00:01:27] Stephane: Saw some alignments and we just kinda met on LinkedIn and started to to chat, in the last year where, where to start? First of all, I work in learning and development. I've been doing that for the last 20 years. And it's all about, you know, the passion of helping others, helping others to, elevate to, to have what they need to be successful in their role.
[00:01:46] Stephane: And I've done that, throughout D. Businesses through different places. I, I'm initially from Montreal, so I've done a lot of that in Quebec. And then I moved to Vancouver, BC about 10 years ago. And I've done, learning and development roles for big [00:02:00] businesses, mostly in Vancouver in the, outdoor and retail industry.
[00:02:03] Stephane: Mostly, and I've done different roles in learning and development, so like, you know, retail trainer, learning designer, all those different things to adjust to the industry and be agile and come up with like really creative solutions. And yeah. You know, I have a ADHD and it's, it's something that a few years ago I was really shy about.
[00:02:22] Stephane: I didn't want to talk about, I'm like, oh, you know, it's, I needs to, it needs to be fixed and I, I can't really bring it up. I, it's gonna get me in trouble. It's gonna create barriers for me, you know? At one point about maybe a year or two years ago, I'm like, Nope, you know, this is, this is who I am. I knew that I had ADHD as a kid, and as an adult it was really different and I just decided to embrace it and say, Nope, I'm gonna talk about it publicly and I'm gonna try to advocate for myself, try to get,
[00:02:49] Stephane: what I need to be successful and make sure that people know that there's not only one way to think about things and one way to look at things. And when I started to be a bit more forward about [00:03:00] it, that's when we connected, right? That's when the doors were opening. Oh, I connect with other people. They also talk about it.
[00:03:05] Stephane: They also are public about the fact that they have a DH. And that's what I've been to in the last year, pretty much, you know, like opening up about it, trying to find solutions for me, trying to, find places that I work that are more adapted to, to it. Trying to connect with people that are also champion of it.
[00:03:22] Stephane: Recently I've launched some projects. That were based on things that were pain points for me to come up with my own solutions solution driven as we are. And, it ended up being solutions that were helping other people as well. So it's, you know, sometimes we see patterns that are helping us and they come up, to be something that is helpful for more than just us.
[00:03:43] Stephane: So, yeah, in, in a really, long story short, the two things that I've started to do in the last few months first of all, neuro inclusive leadership workshops. So I'm helping leaders to better support talent that are neurodivergent, mostly A DHD. Often there's few things, small things that he [00:04:00] can do that will make a big, big difference, not just for neurodivergent talent, but it turns out for everyone, right?
[00:04:06] Stephane: It's like a practical workshop where there's some tips and tricks, things that he can actually do day to day with the neurodivergent talent. And that's been really fun, really positive feedback on that. I'm really enjoying doing this, and it's based on my experience. It's based on what I've seen.
[00:04:22] Stephane: I think that clarity helps all minds. So whatever they do for neurodivergent is just bringing more clarity into the workplace and it's beneficial for everyone, just with some small tweaks here and there in their approach, being more adaptive, in the early leadership.
[00:04:36] Stephane: The other one, is a project called LS Learning. So with my 20 years of experience in learning development combined with learning science, so all the things that I know that work right for learning, , with my education, with all the different experience I have. Combined with, AI for some pattern recognition, I built a system that helps to bring clarity to the review [00:05:00] and building process of digital courses.
[00:05:02] Stephane: 'cause often, at least for me, I was building a course right to deliver something to a, to a client, to a business. And I'm like, okay, now I have to review my own work. How do you do that? How do you change your own perspective on things that you've built yourself? So hard to review your own work. I'm like, there's gotta be a way to have an a structured second set of eyes on it, right?
[00:05:22] Stephane: So that's what I decided to do, to review my own courses, to say, okay, am I okay here? Am I on track? Am I, you know, like doing something that makes sense in terms of cognitive load, structure, flow, all those different things. And then what I built, I started to share that with some other people and they're like, oh my God, this is great.
[00:05:41] Stephane: Like I created content. I don't have a second set of eyes. I would like to use that too. And also people that are creating content that don't necessarily have instructional knowledge. So think like a content creator, right on. A platform like school or any other platform, they know their content really well, but they don't necessarily know how to [00:06:00] structure it, so it makes sense for the learner.
[00:06:01] Stephane: what I've built is actually also really, really helpful for them. It gives them an opportunity to review the course when it's, when they're building it. See, okay, yeah, the structure makes sense and then review it before publishing it to make sure that it's optimal and really build that trust with the learner, because if the course is clear.
[00:06:19] Stephane: It has more odds of lending, well for all minds and people coming back to it and asking for more. So that's, yeah. Trying to summarize all the things that, but, these have been my two biggest, projects. That and, and also, having a family. So, you know, it's like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty busy.
[00:06:35] Chaya: That's good. That fits the A DHD Mind doing multiple things, multiple projects. Now I have like multiple social medias. Recently started writing on Substack and I love it because we are more than one thing. But, when you go into a corporate world, you're given a title and you think that's it.
[00:06:55] Chaya: That's our one role. But you have multiple roles [00:07:00] and I've always been a rebel to any system and anyone who's tried to put me into a box, I've tried to get out, and honor myself. And a lot of it I realized, is because I did that, I didn't have the trauma of fitting in. But my childhood is different because I didn't have the power.
[00:07:23] Chaya: The, when you're a child, the parents, and the teachers, the elders, they have the power. So you have to listen. And back then. You know, I, I just had to learn to fit into the box, but internally I was doing my own thing. So, but but yeah, so I, I think, and I've always questioned who is the judge?
[00:07:47] Chaya: Is it, is it the universe? Is it God? Is it like a person? So if we are doing a good thing, so this is my conclusion, is, is if we in our hearts feel. [00:08:00] We are making an impact in a positive way, that's all it matters. And and so back to the point, we should honor our multiple, the facets of our life because each one of that is still us.
[00:08:15] Chaya: And I wish, organizations would let us do that.
[00:08:20] Stephane: Yeah. And, and I agree with you a hundred percent, and it's hard because, you know, you get to a point of, okay, you know, you're an adult, you realize you have a DHD, maybe you have a diagnostic, maybe it's official. Like, you know, regardless of, of how you're, you're getting to this conclusion. But then you're like, what do I do now?
[00:08:35] Stephane: Do I talk about it? Do I hide it? Do I put this crazy mask and try to function right to a cost of being overwhelmed and drained and, and all those things. It takes so much energy to conform to get into that box. As you said, you say, oh, this is what is expected of me. No one is telling me. Right? It's like unwritten rule.
[00:08:54] Stephane: Gotta fit in. And then what do you do? You hide it and you struggle, or [00:09:00] you bring it forward and you hope that there's gonna be some support, right? And some encouragement and say, no problem. We can do it, this and this to help you out and try to bring more clarity into the workplace. It's hard because you always have to carry that weight, right when you bring it forward to.
[00:09:15] Stephane: Maybe it's the first time they hear about it, maybe they don't know what to do. Maybe they're gonna reject me. Maybe they're gonna, you know, decide that it's not gonna work. And that happened to me like, you know, some places were not open at all and I was like, oh, whoa, okay. Like, but you know, it's not on me to change the whole system obviously, but I can at least champion that and, and voiced it for myself.
[00:09:34] Stephane: And I've experienced so many struggles in a workplace, to be honest. Like things that you already mentioned here, like. Conforming to something that is rigid, right? You join a team, there's 20 members, and they say, you do one piece of it. Don't give any opinion on what's going on on the right, on the left.
[00:09:49] Stephane: Just stay in your lane. Do that, and you're like, but I have opinions and ideas for all of it. No, we don't want to hear about it. Then that drains you down. You're disengaged from work. Right? And the best [00:10:00] work that I've done, honestly, Shaya, like the best places that I've worked at were places where things were not existent.
[00:10:06] Stephane: Like say, okay Stefan, just get us started, spearhead this for us. Do whatever it needs to be done. Awesome. Great. Like, I'll do this and that and I'll take, I'll put this hat on and do this role and do this. A mix of it, and then suddenly everything is brought to life. And they're like, how did that happen?
[00:10:25] Stephane: This is one person. I'm like, yep. And we go into like this hyper-focused mode. We make it happen regardless of titles or roles, and that's what I like, because it's not rigid, right? It's fluid.
[00:10:36] Chaya: Yeah. You, there's freedom. That's what we are asking for is freedom to be ourselves. We are good people. There's, we are not broken. And we have so much more to offer, and so don't put us into a box, into a single role. I was told, by somebody, at my previous organization that perception matters and, and I [00:11:00] feel this is what people are performing to.
[00:11:02] Chaya: Perception, but I didn't listen. I still did what I wanted to do. I would come home during lunch to paint, and I left at three 30 to pick up my son. And nobody, now he's in college, I'm not gonna get those years back. So I'm glad I did, but I always. Always did my work. And it was so much more, but people still saw that visual, right?
[00:11:27] Chaya: Are you sitting at your desk nine to five? It's not about what are you producing? And until pandemic happened, and then people were like, oh, this is, we are flexible. We, why do you need such a huge,
[00:11:43] Stephane: Yeah. Event.
[00:11:44] Stephane: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:45] Chaya: Can we just have an open mind and, look at what we are producing versus all that, facade.
[00:11:54] Stephane: Yeah, and, and you know, it, it is so interesting you say that because you also talked about. System thinking [00:12:00] previously. And I relate to that exactly because I see things as a system, right? And like, I'll give you an example. As you said, sometime organizations will be, were you at your desk from nine to five and only took half an hour break?
[00:12:11] Stephane: You know, like there's like perception of, oh, were you there for me in some places I have worked in the past. I had to come up with like, let's say a learning strategy. Okay. So they'll say, okay, perfect. We're building a course and then we need a strategy for this course. How are we gonna approach it to make sure people will retain information?
[00:12:26] Stephane: And then, the great leaders that I had sometime that would allow that flexibility, I would tell them, Hey, you know what? Like I'll go for a run. Okay, I'll go for a run for, I don't know, 20 minutes, whatever. I'll come back and I'll have clarity and I'll have a learning strategy, not just for one course in my mind, but for the whole learning journey.
[00:12:44] Stephane: And then if they would say, yes, I'll go for a run. I come back and it's like, okay, I got it.
[00:12:48] Stephane: And they're like, whoa. You know, it would've taken like multiple, multiple people for multiple days to find strategies for each course. And it wouldn't necessarily be cohesive anyway. Right. So it's like if you leave that [00:13:00] placeability, you'll have output from someone who's neurodivergent that you've never seen before in such a small amount of time, just because you let them went for.
[00:13:09] Stephane: A run or for whatever, energizes them and brings blood to their brain and, you know what I mean? And for me, that that was like, wow, that's, that works, right? Like if I work from home and I do something and my schedule might be a bit less, let's say rigid or kind of like rational compared to a, a workplace, traditionally speaking, I have amazing ideas.
[00:13:29] Stephane: , and it's like, oh, that's how my brain works, right? it's not sitting on a desk. I'll be sitting on a Zoom call and after 20 minutes I'll be drained and I'm like. Here goes my day. Like, you know, it's, killing me. and, and also like there's so many things in the workplaces that we don't talk about that actually has and negative impact, at least for me, from my experience, for someone who's neurodivergent, like the social integration has an example.
[00:13:54] Stephane: If the onboarding. When you start, that job doesn't take in consideration that [00:14:00] integration right in the team, in the community. And then you're like, oh, do they like me? Am I part of the team? What's that belonging feeling? And if it's not something that is done in the onboarding or in the first few weeks or months, you'll be like, no, this, this is kind of hard for me.
[00:14:15] Stephane: It's kinda hard for me to give it my everything 'cause I don't feel integrated. Right. And that's o often something that businesses don't do well. That social integration of an individual and it, I think it's really impactful and has negative impact, especially for neurodivergent talent. And the psychological safety as well, right?
[00:14:33] Stephane: Like if I'm struggling in the beginning, 'cause I don't know everything 'cause I'm new, who do I talk to? Am I able to be transparent about it? Can I be vulnerable? Can I have a conversation with someone and just say, Hey, can you help me here? 'cause I, I forgot the link that you sent me, or I forgot where to find this new information.
[00:14:48] Stephane: Right. Create that safety, create that net. Create that. Like, Hey, don't worry, you can ask questions. It's fine. Right? Like, you don't need to know everything right away. Or like I told you once, you should know now. [00:15:00] Right. Or giving written instructions to say, don't worry. You know? I know it's a lot. It's new onboarding.
[00:15:06] Stephane: We'll send that to you by email so you can look at it at your own pace if you have any questions or whatever. Those are all a few things that I've noticed that really made a difference for me. When they integrate you socially speaking, they give you like written documents. They have clear expectations.
[00:15:20] Stephane: You integrated socially speaking 'cause there's like maybe a team building or some sort of, you know, a lunch with the team or something like that, and then you're like, wow, I like to be here. And then in return they receive much more from you,
[00:15:32] Chaya: Oh, totally. That's the thing that they don't get it, is that there's so much they give back because we are passionate people and that's all we want to be. We wanna feel that we belong there. Right. And that, I love that word integration because that is so critical. If we have. To integrate with the organization, we should feel belonged.
[00:15:59] Chaya: [00:16:00] And since we can also tell what is real and what is fake, that that's one of our neurodivergent strengths. It has to be done in a genuine fashion and and will give our hearts to it.
[00:16:14] Stephane: And, and you know what, one thing I've came to realize is when I look for a job and I say yes to a job, right? I say yes to more than just a paycheck. Like for me, a. Job is so much more. It's the culture, it's the team, it's the vision, it's the, you know, the, the, the mission of the company. And I've worked for, you know, different style of company like startup, right?
[00:16:36] Stephane: Big corporation or co-op, like different, different style in the past. And, and it's like, okay, perfect. I, I can see myself, aligned with the vision of that company.
[00:16:46] Stephane: At the end of the summer, I barely had money in my bank account from working the full three months in the summer camp. Right. But I would go again back and again, and because I, I liked it so much. The vision, the mission of a summer camp, getting people out, getting people to [00:17:00] try new experiences, getting people to go on trips.
[00:17:02] Stephane: I was like, this is awesome. And I was so passionate that I didn't care about the money. Right. And at one point my parents was like, okay, now you have to find a real job. 'cause you know, like, you have to have, you have to, to bring money into your bank account. I'm like, okay, yeah, sure, I'll try to conform and go into a regular job.
[00:17:17] Stephane: Like you find a job because of the mission and because of the people and because of what it brings you. When you find that so many great things will come out of it. And right now I'm in a process where it's often hard to find, right?
[00:17:30] Stephane: To find a corporation or find a role or find a business that gives you all that stuff and you're like, how long is it gonna last? Are they gonna change their mind? Are they gonna see me for who I am? So I'm more in the process now in a chapter where like. I wanna try things with my own vision, right? Try to do something that I believe in and I'll put all that energy.
[00:17:50] Stephane: 'cause it's, it's my vision. It's, it's me. It's not trying to conform to someone else's. And, yeah, that's really what brought me to, to offer those workshops and, and, and create this, this framework links [00:18:00] learning. And it's like, I don't like when things are a moving target. You know, like when I create training and I'm like, okay, perfect.
[00:18:07] Stephane: I think it's great. Right? Maybe I don't see it anymore 'cause it's mine and I'll, and then I'll, I'll share it and something and they're like, oh no, I think there's like something that needs to be changed or like, oh, I don't like this. Or maybe you can change that. Okay. What do you mean? What do you mean beyond the subjective feedback?
[00:18:20] Stephane: Right. And I'm like, it's a moving target. 'cause you send it to one person or maybe Shaya will say, Hey, this is not good for this reason. And then maybe Mike will say, this is not good for this other reason. Can we agree on something? Because like I don't want to do rework and rework and rework based on a target that is continually moving.
[00:18:36] Stephane: And for me, that drives me nuts. So hard. So that, that's why I try to create more structure and clarity into my own work. 'cause it, it drains me a lot when people are just putting it back and saying, Nope, nope, nope, nope. But what do you mean? Like, so it's, yeah, it's, it's, I think it's really hard to see workplaces or, or project or, you know, things that you're working on that are not always adapted to how our mind [00:19:00] works.
[00:19:00] Stephane: Because we are the one that needs to connect the dots.
[00:19:02] Chaya: My first thought, , when you told me that story is that, charge them. Charge them for the. Extra edits that you won't be frustrated.
[00:19:15] Stephane: Some places are doing it well, so like, it, it depends really on the context, but, yeah, you're right.
[00:19:20] Mike: I want to, go back a, a tiny bit 'cause there's a lot of things that kind of, come to mind, what you've said. I love your perspective and, and, and me. That shows the highlight of why neurodivergent individuals are so adept at creating on their own and building structures on their own.
[00:19:40] Mike: Far more than than others and far more than we get credit for. And before you, we, we talk a lot about in the A DHD community motivation, like that's such a number one topic. Like across the board everyone struggles either with motivation or how people feel about their motivation. Which is often two [00:20:00] different experiences.
[00:20:01] Mike: Before you really realized that there are these broken systems in place that were not serving you and your neurotype, or really anyone's neurotype, honestly, how did you internalize? That, sense of motivation and, and feeling like your motivation is actually what's the problem instead of the system is what's the problem.
[00:20:29] Stephane: It's interesting trying to think back about all these years. Honestly, one thing that comes to mind is that motivation. It's kind almost like a feeling of a mirror, right? So like, okay, let's say I'm motivated about a task, right? Okay, cool. I think that this is the right angle, or this is the thing that we should work on, right?
[00:20:46] Stephane: And I do it, and then I, I bring it to life. And so let's say a training, maybe it's like an in-person training, and then I see the result of it, right? I, I get it back. To me. I see the reflection of it, of the participants saying, this was so cool. I [00:21:00] learned so much, or This was amazing. Oh my God, I'm so proud of being here.
[00:21:03] Stephane: I'm so proud of like working for this company now, that for me was the bottle, that this was a magic motivation. This I want to do more, right? But if I would do something that, let's say an admin task or, or whatever else that I wasn't necessarily motivated about. I didn't get anything back from it. Right.
[00:21:20] Stephane: But I didn't see the impact that it would drive. That's, that would drive me down drain, drain me down. It's like, oh my God, why am I doing this? What's the purpose of it? And yeah, maybe, maybe it's a dopamine fix, most likely, right? Like you're, you're doing something, you're seeing the impact right away.
[00:21:35] Stephane: People are smiling and they're engaged and they're like, happy to be here. Okay, let's keep going. Right? Doing an expense report and you're like, oh my God, why does it have to be so complicated? And the crazy thing is, in some cases, let's say you have to do expense report. 'cause obviously, you know, you travel for work and you have to report that.
[00:21:52] Stephane: In some ways, if it was a clunky system, I had to do like, you know, multiple submit or fill in a really long form [00:22:00] for each of the expenses. Ugh, I'm not gonna do it. I don't wanna do it. I'm gonna forget. It's gonna be complicated. Ugh. Really low motivation and I would maybe miss some deadlines and I would maybe like, you know, get in trouble for it.
[00:22:12] Stephane: But if it was simple, just like take a picture with your phone and click submit on the app for whatever expense report it's done. Awesome. Then I was motivated to do it because I knew that the system was great. Right. I knew that I wouldn't have to fight multiple steps that didn't make sense. And I was like, almost like critical about the system itself and say, oh, that doesn't make sense.
[00:22:31] Stephane: I don't wanna get into it. I don't wanna do it. So I don't know if it answers your questions, but it's like, I guess it's like what you're getting out of it, the way that people are reacting to it. And if, if what you're doing actually drive something and if it makes sense and you kind of see the system being, oh yeah, that's efficient.
[00:22:48] Stephane: I'm not wasting my time here.
[00:22:50] Mike: I think this goes into, an interesting question. I'm curious to hear your perspective on this. What does it mean for things to, you know, make [00:23:00] sense for an A DHD brain versus. You know, holistic brain who kind of just goes with very clunky mechanisms that don't really make a lot of sense.
[00:23:09] Stephane: I think what makes sense is something that, it makes you feel good or makes people feel good. I'll give you like, one thing that comes to mind is like social integration. Why does it make sense? In my opinion, it makes sense. Like it's like a given, right?
[00:23:22] Stephane: And maybe a business would say, oh, that doesn't make sense. Or like, we don't need to invest in that. For me, why it makes sense or why it's. Critical is because it's how people are feeling about it, right? It's like, oh, I'm feeling seen, I'm feeling supported, I'm feeling welcomed here. I'm feeling, safe.
[00:23:38] Stephane: I'm feeling all those things. Then that makes sense to do it because that emotional safety, that, that feeling that people have, for me, it's everything. And that's why I work in learning and development obviously. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's all about human-centered experience. That's what makes sense.
[00:23:54] Stephane: It's the human-centered experience. If a system is clunky, it's because when the humans are going through it, they're like, oh [00:24:00] my God, this is not done in a way that my brain works. Right? It's just meant in a, like a developer way, whatever it is, but it's all about the human experience for something to make sense.
[00:24:10] Stephane: It's like that was taught through because they actually did some tests and you know, people went through it and did it and whatever. Like they've experienced it, right? It's all about the experience, how people are coming out of that experience, in my opinion.
[00:24:21] Chaya: I love that. We are looking for that, that something in return for the dopamines fix. I agree. It has to be interesting and engaging, and that's why they called it the interest-based nervous system. And I think that motivation, if, if we are not, if it's not hitting that spot of interest and, engagement and.
[00:24:44] Chaya: Us getting something in return, we are not gonna be motivated. And, and even today I have boring tasks. Like when you talk about spreadsheet and filling, filling up stuff, I, I absolutely hate it and I will even, even actually, just [00:25:00] scheduling a Zoom call is very boring for me. I, so I will procrastinate, I will mark messages unread, I'll do everything, but then.
[00:25:11] Chaya: I know I have to get it done, so I, I'll pick a time that works for me and, and then add music, I think sound, vibrations, all of that really matter. So we can fake our brain. To actually make it joyful, but it's not majority of my job, right?
[00:25:30] Chaya: I think 95% of my job, I love it. And then there's that 5%, but I think like a good 80 20, 80 20, 80% is joy. Something that you actually like doing and then 20% you can kind of, you know, fake your brain to do it. I think motivation really is internal.
[00:25:51] Stephane: Yeah, and, and as you said, I think it's do more of what you like and try to do less, and, and I think there's. In some capacity, some ways around, right? Like, okay, [00:26:00] perfect. You know what, Shaya, if you don't like to manage your email, and maybe, maybe you forget an email, maybe like things slip down or like, oh my God, I forgot to answer this person.
[00:26:07] Stephane: Whatever. I think that, you know, there we can get to a point. It's like, okay, you know what? Like, let's, let's talk about it. Let's see how we can make it work. If, if it's a team, for example. See, maybe it's someone else. Maybe it's someone else that takes that away from you that does it. So we minimize the mistakes or missing the deadline, whatever, and it's done by someone who's like, okay, perfect.
[00:26:26] Stephane: You know, by self-awareness, if Shaya says I'm not good at it, but someone says I like it 'cause I'm a different type, awesome. Let's just collaborate and, and I'll pitch in where we feel that our strains are. Being used to their best. So that's, I think that's one aspect if you work in, in a collective, in a team.
[00:26:42] Stephane: And the other thing is, one thing I came to realize, I think that AI is actually more helpful than we can, than we can think of, right? So like you say, oh, I forget to send an email to this person as a reminder for my podcast, or something like that. But maybe there's, there's some sort of agent or some AI layer that you can add to it that [00:27:00] automatically sends out.
[00:27:01] Stephane: That reminder email to your guest. And you know, I'll tell you an example. It's not even ai, but for me it's like similar, like think about your bank account. Okay. When I was younger, I was really, really bad at saving money. Okay? But now I'm better at it, not because I actually changed. I didn't change. I just automated the process.
[00:27:18] Stephane: Right. I just set my account, say every two weeks, whatever amount goes from here to there, forget about it, sit like that's it, right? And then I look back at six months, one year after I'm like, oh my God, look at that. My saving account. This is great. So automating processes of things that we don't like to do and we forget to do, I think that's the best thing we can do, right?
[00:27:36] Stephane: It just happens in the background through whatever automation, ai, whatever it is in, in that case. And we don't feel drained or like, 'cause maybe you think about your email at night and say, oh, I forgot to send this email to this person. Oh my God, I gotta do it first thing tomorrow morning.
[00:27:50] Stephane: It occupies your brain, it brings some stress, right? So if you had a system in place that's either someone else or fully automated, then your brain can focus on things that you [00:28:00] actually like to do. That's, that's my opinion on it.
[00:28:02] Chaya: Technology has always helped us
[00:28:04] Stephane: Yeah, yeah. We need it.
[00:28:06] Chaya: some way or the other.
[00:28:08] Stephane: Yeah.
[00:28:08] Mike: the flip side of that is are all the red flags people actually seem to be wanting to use AI for, which is, which is so frustrating, because as you said. This is, these are the practical places it fits in. This is actually where it's there to aid in our, in our ability to design, to, to create it, to re, but it's there to remove noise.
[00:28:35] Mike: It, it's there to maybe help connect dots occasionally. Instead, we, there's a push mostly from the ai. Makers who want to use marketing and stuff to push these things of utilizing it for things that take away human beings instead. Don't get me wrong, do I occasionally use AI for writing emails?
[00:28:57] Mike: Yeah, I do. 'cause it's, it's, it helps with some [00:29:00] demand avoidant problems I have. And I do use tools to, cut down some of that noise, so I can actually get to the things that I, I want to get at, you know, structural things, organizational things.
[00:29:11] Mike: And then I see people who utilize it, you know, for creating artwork or. Writing books, and it bums me out because it's like there, you know, it's, it's something that utilizes precious resources and it in of itself is a resource. And human beings have a way of taking really.
[00:29:31] Mike: Beautiful transgressive things that we create and kind of dumb it down into more basic places. And that's why I love seeing, you know, the spaces you create where you're utilizing it in, in such a beautiful, brilliant way to help people thrive, help humans thrive, not just, you know, those with a DHD or, or neurodiversity.
[00:29:58] Mike: Divergence, like [00:30:00] just anybody, because that's what the tools are for. It's no different than, you know, a, a hammer at the end of the day. And you can use a hammer to hammer a screw, but that's not really gonna work. so use it for what it's for and It is kind of a miracle creation that can really change how we build systems and.
[00:30:21] Mike: The spaces we create. And speaking of spaces, a lot of what you're talking about is, I, I think also goes back to a very important foundation for anybody which is trust. And for, you know, those with a DHD, those on the spectrum, we are very heightened individuals. You know, we're uppity more or less, so trust is something that's very important to us, but it's also very hard for us to come by. How do neuro inclusive spaces build a better sense of trust?
[00:30:53] Stephane: Trust is, is important so much that my opinion, and that's how my system, like Links framework was built. It's [00:31:00] learning is all about trust, right? In, in my world at least, like I work in learning and development, as I said, but trust, and there's so many angles to it.
[00:31:07] Stephane: There's a trust from the professional building, the, the learning experience. So trust to the learner, but there's also trust to the partners. Like, okay, we're working together. Can I trust you? Like, do you trust me? Like all those things, right? That there's so many angles of trust, but how that trust is built to, for lack of a better word, mitigate that sensitivity that we might have, right?
[00:31:28] Stephane: Spiking here and there like crazy emotional re reactions that is psychological safety in the workplace. And it's not something that we often talk about. It's not often, you know, something that is brought up in a workplace.
[00:31:41] Stephane: But the psychological safety is, accepting that someone might fail, accepting that there might be some mistakes happening here and there, and seeing that, like, okay, perfect. This is how we're gonna, you know, learn from it. Not, it's like, oh, you're out. Right? Like, so I think there's, there's that, there's like a resilience or the, the flexibility in the system say, okay, perfect.
[00:31:58] Stephane: It's okay not to be [00:32:00] perfect, right? So there's, that part. The flexibility. I think that when you're showing to your. Team members or to your talent that there's flexibility into the system. It creates trust, creates safety, right? You don't have to say, are you working from home?
[00:32:13] Stephane: I gotta see every minute of you sitting on your computer or every minute of you putting something out. No, no, trust me. Like you want me to do something in three days from now, I'll do it. Let me go through my process. It might not be a linear process. It will be divergent, it will be go left and right, but trust that I will give you what you need in three days time.
[00:32:34] Stephane: And that's something that will make the environment safer, as you mentioned. I think that, you know, it might sound weird and I'm, I'm just like, I'm gonna say it, but having friends in the workplace. Having people that you can talk to, right. Even if they're not doing the exact same role as you having connections in the workplace, even if it's across department.
[00:32:53] Stephane: And let's say you, you and I, Mike, we work at the same place, but different team and we just, we just chat. Right? I can, I can maybe [00:33:00] offload some things to you. I can maybe like be genuine and just talk it through with you and say, oh my God, this is hard. I'm going through this and that. That is safety. Right.
[00:33:08] Stephane: That is safety. Being able to talk about it with someone who's in the same sphere, even if it's not the same team, feeling heard, feeling that you can go to someone to regulate that because maybe we have a hard time with it. Right. And it doesn't have to be your partner at home. 'cause I don't think it's fair for your partner to absorb all that stuff.
[00:33:26] Stephane: And they don't even know 'cause they don't. Even they're not even in that workplace. That is, that is trust. That is psychological safety in the workplace to have those connections. And I've worked in some places that had amazing culture in that regard where it's like wellbeing is a priority. Talk with others, connect with others, build your network before you build any work.
[00:33:45] Stephane: Right? That's that for me, that is something that works a lot like it's, that's, that's awesome. I think there's like few ways that this trust and psychological safety can be built efficiently.
[00:33:54] Mike: Even the most independent of us are interdependent creatures. So the [00:34:00] importance of community in any aspect of our lives is paramount to feeling safe. And most workplaces arguably, denounce such a thing, especially when it comes to complaining about the workplace you happen to be in.
[00:34:13] Mike: That's why I think you should install rage rooms into every workplace across the board. Just have a room where you can just, guys can just go in there and just destroy stuff. It'd be great.
[00:34:23] Stephane: That would be amazing. Oh my God. But yeah, it's like just letting people to be themself for the full, full experience at work. Right? Like it's sometimes they'll have good days, sometimes they'll have bad days. Sometimes it's gonna be hard. Sometimes they'll want. Talk to someone like it's, yeah, there's like, so many ways, but, you know, it's just thinking about it, it's, it's hard because a lot of businesses are performance driven, right?
[00:34:45] Stephane: They're not human driven. It's performance. I gotta see it. I gotta see the result today. I gotta see it like in two days. Go, go, go. And, and, and if you see places that had like external vendors or contract or things like this, it's hard because you're like. You see people in, you see people [00:35:00] out, right. And especially in places where, like for me, that made a big difference.
[00:35:04] Stephane: After COVID, you go into a workplace and they say, okay, perfect. You have to be here. Like, I don't know, like two, three days a week. Right? Like there's a, a presence that is required. Totally fine. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty aligned with a hybrid system like this, but it's challenging when it's a hot desk. You know, you go in on a Monday.
[00:35:20] Stephane: You pick a desk and then maybe Shaya is my neighbor. I, I talk to a Shaya. Hey. Perfect. Hi, nice to meet you. This is awesome. Okay. So glad that we're, you know, sitting right beside each other today. Maybe she works in a different department and then I go in on a Wednesday and it's someone else 'cause it's a hot desk.
[00:35:35] Stephane: And it's hard to build safety and sense of belonging when your neighbor changes all the time because you can't build conversation like this. If I only see Shaya three months. After. Right. So I feel like having those like permanent desk or like a belonging, this is where I sit. This is my spot, this is my family, this is my picture of my daughter, this is me on a ski trip last weekend.
[00:35:57] Stephane: You know you have all those pictures on your desk or something [00:36:00] people can talk about, Hey, I didn't know that about you. Like that brings safety. 'cause you connect and you have something to talk about that is beyond just your role, it's you as an individual. But with those hot desk or like the, the, the, you know, remote aspect of work in many places it's hard to build that.
[00:36:16] Stephane: It's hard to build that human connection. 'cause it's just like, go in, do your work, sign out, and the next day go in a different desk, go out. You know, it's that, that's really challenging for me at least.
[00:36:26] Chaya: I think, people should be given opportunity to speak. And especially it would be great if leaders. Could listen. because I can see, individuals, talking to one another that happens right in the cafeteria. But the frustration stays right there.
[00:36:45] Chaya: And this somewhat like the air of leadership, that they're not approachable, you cannot really speak the truth or they don't want to hear it. And that, leads to suffocation eventually. Uh.
[00:36:59] Stephane: I think that [00:37:00] the, like the open door policy or being able to say, okay, you know what, like regardless of my role, regardless of how high I am in the organization, feel free to come talk to me. And you don't have to filter necessarily. 'cause like, you know, there's an expectation, like, oh, you're a director, you're a vp.
[00:37:13] Stephane: When you talk to me, you talk to me this way, talk to me with those words. You talk to me in this, you know, short sentence and like, make it quick. 'cause I, I don't have time for you. That's so hard. And I've experienced that. Wait, you want to hear my opinion, but you don't, 'cause you want me to formulate that in a specific way that is so filtered that I, my ideal won't come across.
[00:37:32] Stephane: It's so challenging. 'cause the system around it is built for a purpose that is not necessarily inclusive of different types of minds. Right. And, and that's, yeah. I think it's, it's, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a big shift that we need to, to make happen in the workplace and the.
[00:37:47] Stephane: If I can do my part for it, well, you know, might as well. But, it's, it's a big, it's a big shift. It's a big boat to turn for. Sure.
[00:37:54] Chaya: The hierarchy. The hierarchy needs to really go.
[00:37:58] Mike: Definitely, [00:38:00] and I mean, those are hierarchal systems that aren't productive for anybody. We just happen to notice that they're not productive. You know, it's, it's funny to look at it as, oh, well, you're neurodivergent. Why are you asking for accommodations that nobody else gets, you know? Like, that's like, well, you ask for accommodations all the time.
[00:38:18] Mike: You know, you ask for, oh, those in charge need to be spoken to, to an exact specific way, even if it doesn't make any sense and you have to go do useless work because the person in charge thinks it's a good idea when it's really not. No, you like you're asking for things that all the time that you're making everyone else do.
[00:38:38] Mike: So all because we're asking to do things a little bit differently because it makes it better. You know? Why is that? Why is that harmful? That I, it comes down to mostly an ego trip thing most of the
[00:38:50] Stephane: Yeah. And you know, it's interesting 'cause I'm, I'm just kind of a thinking of some. Um, as you say that, Mike, a lot of entrepreneurs have ADHD, right? Like a lot of [00:39:00] age ADHD will come up with ideas. It's gonna become a system, it's gonna become some sort of, you know, innovative thing of some sort. But I wonder, I wonder, is it because they're so creative that it brings amazing ideas to life?
[00:39:12] Stephane: Or is it because that's the response of not being accepted fully in a typical workplace and doing their own thing?
[00:39:19] Chaya: I think all of that is true and, and you're. An out of box thinker. When you start thinking from all different angles, you're gonna see the problem which other people miss, and the emotional connection, it's all about emotions for us. We feel rejected. Then you create a new system.
[00:39:37] Stephane: Yeah. You create something that you feel safe, safe in.
[00:39:39] Chaya: So, before you go, Stefan, I, I wanna hear more about your, the system you are building and who is it for?
[00:39:47] Chaya: How are people gonna benefit? Yeah.
[00:39:50] Stephane: so l Learning, in a nutshell, it's really to offer a structured way. Of building and river view, reviewing courses, because often it's a bit of a chaotic experience, [00:40:00] you know, either on the build side it's like, okay, where do I start? How do I put myself together?
[00:40:04] Stephane: Like how do I structure that content? That could be overwhelming. And then on the review side, it's like, you know, sometimes it's chaotic because you have, you receive feedback from left and right and subjective feedback and opinions and like, okay, wait a minute. Like, let me get clarity. Through, like, through that noise.
[00:40:20] Stephane: 'cause there's a lot of noise in the review process. So I just wanna have clarity. I just wanna know like, what do I actually need to change? Right. What's the reason behind? And give me a clear path, gimme a clear action path that I know and I'm not missing comments.
[00:40:33] Stephane: You're like, oh my God, I'm gonna miss one of those. 'cause they're coming from everywhere. So it's in a nutshell, it's a structured second set of eyes to build and review your courses in an efficient way.
[00:40:43] Stephane: To answer your question someone who might benefit from it. I think there's a lot of people obviously, but content creators, right, that are not necessarily used to building content in a instructional way. That they might need support, but they don't have an instructional designer in their team.
[00:40:57] Stephane: They're working solo. So they, they want to have [00:41:00] like that perspective on that course. I think that links learning is, really beneficial for them. But I also think it's interesting for someone who works solo. I'm thinking like, let's say consultant as an example, supporting a team building courses. They don't have anyone else looking back at their course.
[00:41:16] Stephane: They don't have that second set of eyes on it. They're working solo and at one point you can't see your own work. It's so hard to review your own work. I think it's really beneficial for someone like this, and I also think that it's really beneficial for big teams. I want to have a common language for the review process.
[00:41:32] Stephane: 'cause in a nutshell, what you would gain from it, regardless if you're a content creator, a solo person, like a consultant or a big team, you gain, you reduce your review time substantially. Things that might take weeks and be really costly are compressed into days right of clear path, clarity for the professional, working behind the learning experience a common language, you know exactly what to fix and it, it will bring you there in a much more accelerated [00:42:00] way.
[00:42:00] Stephane: That's really the big beneficial, aspect of it. And it also brings so much more clarity to the course. Because the end result will be a course that is built with, clarity for all minds. So like, let's say for me, if I read a course and it's like super long sentences, you lost me there, right? But if there's a way to catch that and say, oh yeah, that needs to be broken down into three sentences, then that course will land better for me and for many other learners.
[00:42:26] Stephane: And I'll want more. I'll want to come back. I'll want to engage more with your library, with your academy, with your portal, with your platform, whatever it is. And that's what it is. You're building better trust with your audience and your partners.
[00:42:38] Chaya: It's. And that includes personalization.
[00:42:42] Stephane: One aspect that, it also does, and I'm glad that you bring it up, is often a tricky part is, brand standards. So brand alignment. So maybe some brands or some content creators wanna make sure that their course are aligned with some sort of standards. We don't say this word, this word, but we say this word instead, or [00:43:00] we wanna make sure that all the, you know, this thing shows up this way, whatever it is.
[00:43:04] Stephane: Then that is something that Lex learning also does, is the alignment with your brand standards. Especially if you're an external vendor and you work for a company and they have standards. How do you check if your work is indeed properly aligned before you send it to your client? That is something that will.
[00:43:19] Stephane: Protect your reputation because you don't have to do a lot of rework and say, oh, I missed the mark here, or forgot that this company, you know, have a custom request of not saying this word or that thing. So that's a good way to check your work before you send that for those standards.
[00:43:35] Mike: is a beautiful, wonderful system. And something that, and how many people have really even thought in those terms up until this point. And that is something that is desperately needed. I would say. Where can anyone learn more information?
[00:43:49] Stephane: Right now the best place to go is, the LinkedIn page, LX Learning. This is where you'll find all the information. It's really early phase, to be honest. There's a lot of new things coming out. We're gonna [00:44:00] have a website and different things, in a short while.
[00:44:02] Stephane: But right now the LinkedIn page is the best place to go for licks learning. In practice, Mike, just to kinda give a bit more detail, what it provides is first is a diagnostic on a course. So like we will give you kind of a one page report and like, okay, this is where your course stands, these are the risks in terms of clarity, one pager, and then the next phase is actually, improvement plan.
[00:44:22] Stephane: So it's your course annotated with some recommendations and say. Here and here that needs to be changed, or we recommend to change this and that for these reasons. So you actually learn through that process as well. Right? That's something, that the system does. And then it all starts with an exploratory call with me.
[00:44:38] Stephane: So like, if someone is interested to, to partner up to see how it works. To get a demo or whatever, go on l learning on LinkedIn, book a call with me. I'll be more happy to connect and then walk them through it and see exactly what are their needs and then, curate the approach from there.
[00:44:52] Mike: Awesome. And I, I really recommend people. Do that. If you are, if you are interested in this, I'll be sure to include all that [00:45:00] in the show notes as well. As much information as I can put, and I really want to thank you for joining us. This has been a really interesting conversation and I, I love having you on, so you'll have to come back.
[00:45:11] Chaya: Thank you Stefan.
[00:45:12] Stephane: Thank you so much.