Attachment Styles & Trauma: Healing The Hurts That Bind with Shoshana Cook
Mike and Chaya chat with trauma-informed therapist Shoshana Cook, who delves into Attachment Theory, shedding light on the shortcomings in mental health treatment related to it and advocating for a more comprehensive approach.
We Also Cover:
- Incorporating Multiple Treatment Modalities (CBT, DBT, etc)
- A "One-Size-Fits-All" Approach to Mental Recovery Doesn't Exist
- How Treatment Center Turnover Rates Affect Continuity of Care
- Psychoeducation For Attachment Styles
- Parts Therapy/Internal Family Systems
- Schema
- Systemic Changes for the Mental Health Field
- Setting Realistic Expectations
- Trauma Myths
- Complexity of Attachment Styles (Avoidant, Anxious, Ambivalent)
- Customizing Treatment Goals and Methods on an Individual Basis
Quotes:
- "They believe that they're not worthy. They believe that they're not lovable. They believe that they can never have someone just someone that will stay."
- "And even if it wasn't blatant abuse, it could be something as simple as the parent traveled a lot for work were never really around or was sick and they weren't able to show up for their child in the way that they needed to."
- "There are a lot of misdiagnoses. There could be 20 diagnoses for a symptom. We can't just look at a symptom. We can't just throw a medication at something. What we really need to be looking at is, what is the root cause? Why are they experiencing this?"
- "I work with clients with BPD, and they're some of the kindest, most compassionate people I've ever met. Because their trauma has made them hyper-empathetic to other people. So they're like, 'I know what it feels like to feel bad, so I always want to make sure other people don't feel bad.'"
About Shoshana Cook:
Shoshana began her career in 2019 at a non-profit adolescent lockdown facility in Maryland. She identified gaps in the system that needed change for a more ethical, individual-focused approach to take hold. After working with adults experiencing severe mental health issues, she transferred to the substance abuse and co-occurring disorder unit, staying until early 2023. Through these roles, she gained insights into treatment misconceptions and the importance of diversity. Now in private practice, she works with adults impacted by trauma, understanding that unhealed trauma often underlies many other issues.
"Heal it at the root and then the branches and leaves will also flourish"
Connect With Shoshana:
- Shoshana's Website
- @renewed.healing.therapy on Instagram
- Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/RenewedHealingPrints
As always, thanks for lending us your ears and keep igniting that spark!
Stay Connected:
- Website: https://sparklaunchpodcast.com/
- ADHD Coaching & Workshops: https://www.sparklaunch.org/
- Chaya on Instagram
- Mike on Instagram
- Want To Be a Guest? https://sparklaunchpodcast.com/booking
Transcript
You've landed at Spark Launch, the guide star for embracing what it means to be neurodiverse.
Speaker:I'm Mike Cornell, joined by CEO of Spark Launch, Chaya Mallavaram.
Speaker:Here, we navigate mental health triumphs and tribulations from all across the spectrum, charting a course of the shared experiences that unite us, and discovering how to embody the unique strengths within neurodivergent and neurotypical alike, igniting your spark, and launching it into a better tomorrow.
Speaker:Hello there.
Speaker:I'm Mike.
Speaker:I'm Chaya.
Speaker:Today, we're talking to Shoshana Cook, who started her career at a nonprofit adolescent lockdown facility in Maryland.
Speaker:And while there, she saw a lot of gaps that needed to be filled for a more ethical and moral system focused on individuals and less on organizations.
Speaker:Through her experience working with adults facing psychosis, suicidal and homicidal ideation, substance abuse and co occurring disorders, among other severe mental health illnesses.
Speaker:She's worked hard to understand the misconceptions about treatment interventions, the systems already in place, and the importance of diversity.
Speaker:She is now in private practice working with adults experiencing the impacts of trauma.
Speaker:Welcome.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:Thank you for having me today.
Speaker:So, Shoshana, I gonna ask what is trauma, but then your background seems so interesting and looks like it had an impact as to why you're doing what you're doing.
Speaker:So if you can talk a little bit about your background, that'll be great.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I guess to answer your, you know, your first question, trauma I think there needs to be a differentiation between trauma and PTSD.
Speaker:We can experience things that are traumatic, and they are truly traumatic.
Speaker:But it doesn't mean that we necessarily have PTSD.
Speaker:And I think sometimes when trauma, whether it's, like, out on social media or whatever, it's like, oh my gosh, like, if it's like, you know, if you have these three things, then that means you have trauma.
Speaker:And then everyone's like, oh, my gosh.
Speaker:I have PTSD.
Speaker:Look at that.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So they are different.
Speaker:And what trauma essentially is, it's not really about what happened to you.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It's not about the car accident or the assault or whatever.
Speaker:It's about how it's impacting you.
Speaker:So 2 people can go through very similar or even, you know, quote unquote same experience and can come up very differently.
Speaker:What happens is that when we get overwhelmed, when we get stressed, our nervous system, it spikes.
Speaker:So our heart rate starts beating really fast.
Speaker:We start getting sweaty.
Speaker:Our prefrontal cortex, so the front part of the brain, the logic kind of goes offline and all this stuff.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And if we can regulate ourselves, right, if we can make sure that our heart rate is at an all pace and all these things in our nervous system, it kind of spikes, and then it goes down.
Speaker:And that's when we don't experience the lasting impacts of PTSD.
Speaker:If for whatever reason we can't, whether we're just so distressed, so dysregulated, or maybe we physically can't, right?
Speaker:Like maybe for a long time, we're stuck in a car accident where we can't get out of the car, or we're in, you know, a a long term domestic violence, whether it's partner or family, you know, relationship, and we physically cannot get out, that's when we kind of experience those impacts of trauma.
Speaker:So I think it was Gabriel Matej who said it, that trauma isn't what happened to you.
Speaker:It's not the event that happened to you.
Speaker:It's what happens inside of you.
Speaker:So that's kind of my answer there.
Speaker:I think that, you know, we can have a breakup, right, a really traumatic breakup, and it can we can experience that trauma.
Speaker:It doesn't mean that we have PTSD from breaking up with someone.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So that's kind of, you know, my disclaimer on trauma there.
Speaker:And as for your second question, yeah.
Speaker:So I actually I started in 2019.
Speaker:I worked at a nonprofit kind of in the area.
Speaker:I think it's Shepard Pratt.
Speaker:So it's a pretty large one.
Speaker:I worked there essentially right before COVID.
Speaker:So I worked with teen boys in lockdown.
Speaker:A lot of them, they were, they went to court for some type of sexual assault, whether it was done to them or vice versa.
Speaker:And, and, yeah, so I work with them.
Speaker:We work a lot on kind of the impacts of how that impacted them.
Speaker:And I always say that in order to heal the behavior, we have to heal the root.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:In order to change how we respond to things, we have to figure out why we respond to things.
Speaker:And so I work with them.
Speaker:It wasn't actually as I think I went into it thinking, oh my gosh, like, this is gonna be scary.
Speaker:I'm terrified.
Speaker:And it wasn't, you know, these are just kids that have been victimized.
Speaker:And, you know, we were obviously given the skills to work with them, so we weren't just just, like, you know, thrown to the wolves.
Speaker:I started there, and I do like working with with adolescents.
Speaker:I do work like working with teens.
Speaker:I think my biggest struggle with that is that because I work really solely right now with trauma, a lot of the times, and not always, but a lot of the times the parents are a big factor of that.
Speaker:And so having to work with someone and give them skills and knowing they're just going to go back home for me is difficult.
Speaker:And part of being a therapist and part of being a clinician is understanding what things that are a little bit, I guess, more shaky on the side of professionalism.
Speaker:Like what is a little bit too, you know, hits too too hard home or, you know, things like that.
Speaker:So that's one of those things that I don't necessarily work with as much.
Speaker:I do still have a few teen clients now though.
Speaker:And so that, yeah, from there, I started working with adults and really it was just COVID and I was waiting to get my, you know, one of my degrees so I could work there.
Speaker:Obviously, minimum wage, of course, you know, bachelor's in minimum wage, you know.
Speaker:And I worked there for, I think, about 3 years.
Speaker:I loved it.
Speaker:But I, again, you know, I really saw that trauma is that mediating factor.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It's you you're using substances because you're trying to drown the trauma out.
Speaker:Or you're having anxiety, or you're having even, like, you know, personality disorder or attack insecure attachment styles because of the trauma you experienced.
Speaker:So now I very much go into it.
Speaker:I don't wanna put a band aid on your issues.
Speaker:I mean, of course, like, you know, it's not like I'll be like, oh, you're self harming and using substances.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:Let's go.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So there will be some level of band aid use, but really my goal is to get to that route, to get to that, you know, core problem.
Speaker:One thing what really stood out was, what you told about, what each person experiences is very unique because this 2 2 people can go through that same experience, but feel completely different inside.
Speaker:So for instance, siblings, right.
Speaker:Or classmates, they all go through the same experience with the same set of parents, same set of teachers, same school, same setting.
Speaker:But they all could feel differently based on their makeup, genetic makeup, or composition, whatever that's that makes us unique.
Speaker:So that's why, I mean, I've always known not to compare yourself to to another individual from that same setting.
Speaker:But but then you just look at the world, everyone's comparing.
Speaker:And and and it's just so so wrong.
Speaker:I know it's wrong, but but a lot of issues are because we are telling I I think sometimes we are even imposing our own personal beliefs onto somebody else, right, without knowing who they are or what they're made up of.
Speaker:So I think that point, what you mentioned really stood out
Speaker:for me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think we do this thing, and I was actually talking to someone about it the other day of how the whole phrase I I I have issues with it.
Speaker:The whole phrase of, you know, put yourself in someone else's shoes.
Speaker:Because we're our shoes are different.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Our feet are different.
Speaker:Someone may have socks.
Speaker:Someone may not.
Speaker:You know, if you flip flops, for example, right, if you just say, well, just put yourself in those flip flops.
Speaker:What if they're a different size?
Speaker:Like, what if you already have socks on and they didn't have socks on?
Speaker:I know for a fact putting flip flops on with socks on is very different than without, you know?
Speaker:And I think, you know, we have this tendency as humans, as people, right, to compare ourselves, but we kind of we look at the iceberg.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:We look at that tip of the iceberg that that person wants to show us and compare it to everything of us.
Speaker:And I think that's one of the reasons why it goes really wrong, and we are people that are very, you know, multifaceted.
Speaker:We're very complex.
Speaker:You know, I may look at someone on social media and say, oh my gosh, I wish I was like that person, but I'm not really considering their upbringing.
Speaker:I'm not considering their resources.
Speaker:I'm not considering their social support, how they got to that place even.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:I'm not considering their flaws.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because I'm just looking at that perfect photoshopped or non photoshopped, you know, image.
Speaker:I'm not looking at them, but I'm looking at all of me.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:I'm looking at all of my issues, all of my flaws, all of my, you know, my upbringing and this and that.
Speaker:And I think if we're gonna compare ourselves to other people, then compare our whole selves with their whole selves or compare our tip of the iceberg, but we wanna show people with their tip of the iceberg.
Speaker:Otherwise, it's not, you know, it's not fair to us, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I I've never liked the walk in somebody else's shoes metaphor, so I'm so glad you dunked on that.
Speaker:Trauma comparison is so easy to fall into.
Speaker:I mean, comparison of of anything, but particularly, I think with trauma, when you have a lot of when you're someone with a lot of strong empathy towards others, and also maybe a low sense of self, that's when you start comparing as a comparing as a mode of self harm.
Speaker:I definitely had I've had a form of that in the past, and I've seen it in others.
Speaker:And it is a bad circular trap to find yourself in because you'll always look for reasons to why yours is is lesser or, you know, everybody everybody has their own brand of suffering and one brand supposed to be greater than the other.
Speaker:And as I've there's probably friends who are gonna roll their eyes when I say this because I say it very often, which is there's there is big tree, big t trauma and little t trauma, but the brain doesn't care about capitalization because that is a social construct created as a form of language, your brain doesn't care about that.
Speaker:It's gonna react exactly the same.
Speaker:So I know I have had forms of trauma in my life.
Speaker:And I had a hard time in my younger years, accepting that, and even accepting it now because of a lot of other suffering that's going on or things that other, you know, friends go through, and suddenly mine feel less unwieldy.
Speaker:But all because they feel that way in comparison doesn't mean their reactionary aspects don't harm me the same way.
Speaker:And that goes for for everybody for and this is, something that I kind of came across myself a few years ago.
Speaker:Funny, you mentioned Shepherd Pratt, I was almost hospitalized there a couple years ago, the eating disorder part of it.
Speaker:So I'm kind of familiar.
Speaker:I've talked with people on the eating disorder side there.
Speaker:And so I had I suffered from anorexia.
Speaker:And through that, I would binge have binge episodes.
Speaker:And I actually as I came to learn more about ARFID, I realized ARFID can be caused actually by trauma related to food or vomiting or, you know, numerous things.
Speaker:But for my for me, it was the sensation of being overly full from a binge would trigger sense memories that would then bring me back.
Speaker:So any feeling of fullness would cause me to feel like the same kind of traumatic self hate and uncomfortable feeling even if it didn't match.
Speaker:I've been being autistic.
Speaker:I have I've always been overly sensitive to feelings of fullness.
Speaker:So that was a combination of things.
Speaker:And that's really, I think, what opened my eyes to, like, the complexity of different forms of trauma and how they can manifest in completely different ways.
Speaker:Like, it's not just the surface level stereotypical trauma that you see.
Speaker:There are many little, quote, unquote, little forms of trauma that can build up even in, like, your just daily life.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Thank you for sharing.
Speaker:And I guess something else kind of what I wanna point out, you know, in addition to kind of what you shared is that I think that having a quote unquote, like, little t trauma is in some ways almost worse.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It's almost almost more traumatic because no one gets it.
Speaker:And kind of this idea of like, what's the deal?
Speaker:Like, why are you just getting over it?
Speaker:Or like, it happened a long time ago and all those toxic, you know, comments that you get.
Speaker:But I think that one of the hardest things about having those quote unquote little t traumas is that we it's hard to verbalize it.
Speaker:You know, it's hard for to get people to get it.
Speaker:If we say to someone, you know, if we share this, you know, really big T trauma, like this thing that is super horrific that everyone's going to be like, oh my gosh, like that is so, like, I'm so sorry.
Speaker:I'm, you know, that's horrible.
Speaker:Then they get that empathy, right?
Speaker:They get that understanding from their friends, from their family, etcetera.
Speaker:And something that I hear a lot actually with domestic violence, and I use the word domestic violence very loosely, as in it can be, I think a lot of times people think, oh, it's partners.
Speaker:It's not always partners.
Speaker:Sometimes it's parents.
Speaker:Sometimes it's even kids.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And is that I didn't mind getting hit, but the worst thing was that verbal abuse, if that sticks with you.
Speaker:And so that's something I always kind of point out in that, you know, I think also as a society where it kind of like, you know, the, the really old phrase, sticks and stones won't break my bones or will break my bones and words will never hurt me.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:And I think that while a lot of us, you know, in this new era don't necessarily, you know, resonate with that, I think it's still kind of in the back of our head of like, how am I gonna tell someone that, you know, my mother, my, you know, at school, up here, whatever, like they said something and it really hurt me, but they shouldn't hit me.
Speaker:So, you know, and I think that there's this new added layer of silence.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And part of trauma is not necessarily sharing your entire story with the world, but not feeling like you're being silenced, not feeling like you're being restricted.
Speaker:Because a lot of trauma is not having that control, right, of not having that ability to feel free.
Speaker:And it goes for that, of those quote unquote little traumas.
Speaker:It also goes for people actually who are in really wealthy families, who are in really, you know, privileged, you know, so to speak, families.
Speaker:Because who am I to say that I had grown up in a good school, and my parents were really rich, and they were really reputable, and they also have trauma.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And it's like this weird dynamic.
Speaker:And I think we forget, not just as people, but also as a society, that 2 things can happen at the same time.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:We can grow up in a wealthy home, and we can be traumatized.
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:I definitely I hear you.
Speaker:And I think that there is an extra added, you know, unfortunate, obviously, layer when it comes to people that are traumatized that don't unquote look traumatized.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:They're not starving.
Speaker:They're not they don't have bruises all over them.
Speaker:They don't have broken bones.
Speaker:And, you know, again, we as a society, we like to we like to believe things that we see.
Speaker:We like to believe things that we can visually look at.
Speaker:And when we can, it feels I think there's a lot of invalidating.
Speaker:And whether that's self invalidating or external validating, I think it's still it's still there.
Speaker:It does impact someone's ability to heal.
Speaker:Because why am I gonna go to a therapist when, like, I'm fine, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And invalidation is trauma.
Speaker:Traumatic invalidation is something that especially happens with, going back to this podcast itself, neurodivergent individuals constantly invalidated their experiences, invalidated their sensory issues invalidated and all that.
Speaker:Like you said, it's a lot of times the the macro traumas are big or a large event that took place, while maybe the micro traumas are repeating events that back up to one another.
Speaker:So in that way, while on the maybe outside or if you were to write it down, you know, in a academic paper, it's it seems larger than it is, you know, it looks like the big iceberg.
Speaker:Really, they're they're equal in parts.
Speaker:And they as as I said, the brain is gonna react to them pretty similarly.
Speaker:And it takes the same kind of efforts and treatments to I hate using the word combat them, but it's still appropriate in a lot of ways.
Speaker:Combat them and some of the harmful manifestations they they can create, particularly when it comes to, I think, self harm comes up a lot.
Speaker:And I mean, not to keep going back to me, but also, you know, the eating disorder was in a lot of ways, another manifestation of that.
Speaker:And one thing I am curious about is a lot when it comes to trauma and that there's dissociation and very much like emotional numbing.
Speaker:I was curious how you approach that in trauma therapy whenever an episode is occurring or how to navigate those episodes?
Speaker:Mhmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So dissociation is one of those difficult ones, right, because it's they're not comp 100% present in wherever they are.
Speaker:So I usually try and catch it before it gets on to full on, you know, dissociation.
Speaker:And a lot of that is grounding.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:A lot of that is senses.
Speaker:So whether it's catching things, whether it's feeling things, one method I really like to use, and I do modify it a little bit, but it's the, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 senses.
Speaker:I don't know if you're familiar with that at all, but technically, it's 5 things you can see, 4 things you can I think it's 4 things you can hear, 3 things you can touch, 2 things you can smell, and one thing you could taste?
Speaker:And I say, like, you can move around because I think sometimes or you can do things.
Speaker:So if you can't hear, you know, how many things, like, you know, tap on the desk or, you know, or you can't feel everything, like, you can move your hands, you can feel your shirt, like, whatever.
Speaker:I do modify it oftentimes because I usually just do the first three, and I will change the numbers.
Speaker:So I usually keep it at 5 because, generally, we can see 5 things.
Speaker:I don't always have 4 things we can hear, though.
Speaker:Sometimes I have 3.
Speaker:And then as 4 touching, usually around 2 or something like that.
Speaker:The reason is because when we're dissociating and when we're already a little bit out of it and dysregulated, we don't need to kind of give you a task that's gonna be too hard for you to handle because that's not gonna be effective.
Speaker:They're just something that's manageable, but enough so that you can kind of feel things.
Speaker:And so that's kind of how I work with that part.
Speaker:But I also use an intervention called IFS or Parts Therapy, otherwise known as Internal Family Systems.
Speaker:It has absolutely nothing to do with families.
Speaker:But it's this idea that we are humans of any parts.
Speaker:And we all have parts, you know, whether we have trauma or not.
Speaker:But generally, people who do experience trauma, they are people who they're a little bit more split.
Speaker:So they are the people that say, I really want this relationship, and I'm really terrified.
Speaker:And they're the people that and not everyone, obviously, but the people that may say, I really love this person, and I want to push them away.
Speaker:Because if I push them away, they can't reject me.
Speaker:And they have a lot of these conflicting feelings and these conflicting, you know, parts.
Speaker:And so what we do with that is we'll actually create a part.
Speaker:In creating a part, it means visualizing the part and of seeing the part and talking to it.
Speaker:And it I think it helps a lot being able to talk to something else.
Speaker:Because sometimes when we're, for example, depressed, right, we don't wanna say, I'm gonna get up for myself.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Maybe we can say, I'm going to get up for this part.
Speaker:Or instead of saying, you know, I hate myself or I feel this way, I feel this way, we can say, this part really dislikes me.
Speaker:And with all parts, they are doing their very best to protect us, and they just don't have the skills to know how to do it right.
Speaker:So even with body image, body image actually comes a lot in art therapy.
Speaker:And so, generally, what happens is that, you know, you may find that there's this part that's saying, you know, you don't look good.
Speaker:You are not gonna look cute in this outfit because x, y, and z.
Speaker:And so that we say, you know, what's the fear?
Speaker:Like, what's going on behind it?
Speaker:Like, what if we don't look good in this outfit?
Speaker:You know, what if we don't what if we're not cute in this dress or this shirt or, you know, whatever?
Speaker:Like, what happens then?
Speaker:And then after we kind of explored a little bit more, we figure out that if we keep telling ourselves that we look this way or that way, then it's that control piece.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And it's like, what if I let myself go?
Speaker:Because that means I'm unacceptable.
Speaker:And if I'm unacceptable, that means I'm lonely, and that means I'll never find anyone.
Speaker:So really the fear is not about the body image.
Speaker:Really, the fear is about being alone.
Speaker:Really, the fear is about being rejected.
Speaker:And so then we work with that.
Speaker:And so it depends on where you look, like what study you look, but it's generally like a 90% ish success rate.
Speaker:So it is really good.
Speaker:And I have used it with clients who, you know, even after, like, 1 or 2 weeks, like, they're like, wow, I've seen a difference.
Speaker:And I'm like, good.
Speaker:So I don't even remember what initial question was actually dissociation.
Speaker:So, yes, I have used I've used this with dissociation.
Speaker:So when people kind of begin to kind of feel that dissociation coming on, because especially if you experienced it for, you know, pretty consistently in your life, you generally can kind of feel it coming on, whether it's just kind of feeling like out of your body, or you start, you know, you can't see things clearly.
Speaker:Dissociation happens in in very different ways.
Speaker:So I would so I say usually creating a part for that.
Speaker:And the other thing is that sometimes it's helpful.
Speaker:So that's kind of when we transition into harm reduction.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:If we are in a place where we are actually being traumatized, right, then sometimes it's helpful to just dissociate.
Speaker:You know, I don't necessarily, you know, use it as a therapeutic skill to try and do it.
Speaker:But I also am someone who I advocate for keeping ourselves as safe emotionally, physically, all the things as possible.
Speaker:So if we're in a place where we're emotionally being attacked in whatever way, then and if you feel like dissociation is the best way to kind of, again, with your word combat that, then go for it.
Speaker:Obviously, if you're being physically attacked, then I would not recommend or encourage in any way dissociation because that can be obviously harmful if you're kind of in that net freeze or fawn mode or whatnot.
Speaker:But, yeah, I think it, you know, all the dimensions and all all things that really depends on the client, kind of where they're at, their situation, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker:But, yeah.
Speaker:So I would say, you know, a lot of grounding, a lot of, kind of, being the present, acknowledging your current senses, some parts therapy, and then also just understanding kind of the situation that you're in and what is most helpful for your for your, nervous system.
Speaker:And we always have that choice in us as to when we can use these tools.
Speaker:Because sometimes we want to be present.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:We we our hearts desire to be present, but we are not.
Speaker:And so so using the techniques that you mentioned, I love the 54321 technique where you can just do that easily and bring yourself to the present moment.
Speaker:And, and because I did that a lot in school, it was going over my head.
Speaker:I, I, instead of forcing myself, I, I disassociated beautifully and it worked out.
Speaker:So I, I might have rejected a lot of trauma, that could have happened, but I know I did take in, especially you brought about verbal views from teachers.
Speaker:For instance, when I was daydreaming and when I was disassociating, like I had teachers throw chalk at me or hit me with a duster on my head.
Speaker:Things like that did stay me.
Speaker:And I know it did play a lot throughout my life.
Speaker:And, and I've worked on building that confidence, which was taken away when I was a child and throughout my life, I've been working.
Speaker:And as I'm speaking, I'm still working on that, but I have ADHD and I know that the vortex is, is thinner.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:The the there's actually a physical difference in in the brain.
Speaker:And I know we that that's why we get distracted because it's thinner.
Speaker:It is so can a lot of things that we probably shouldn't.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So it's for me, it's a very conscious effort not to listen.
Speaker:So I don't listen to the news.
Speaker:I I don't associate with a lot of things because I know I can get sucked in.
Speaker:And so but when you're a child, you don't know that.
Speaker:We we've never been taught that skill.
Speaker:That skill is something that I learned as an adult.
Speaker:But like verbal abuse, you could just soak it in as a child and internalize it and make it a part of your personality.
Speaker:Because especially public speaking, I never knew that I could speak publicly because of the things that were said.
Speaker:And and I don't even remember.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Which I don't even remember.
Speaker:But I believed I was never a public speaker.
Speaker:And I've even cried and frozen on stage one time because I thought I had to memorize and speak in a certain way or in a certain order.
Speaker:And and trauma like that, right, was not big because a lot of people have public speaking fears.
Speaker:But but then it played out in my life.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Maybe in my career, maybe in other things.
Speaker:So so it was it was the micro trauma, which Mike talked about.
Speaker:I I guess that's what I would call a micro trauma.
Speaker:And with, neurodivergent, they're constantly being told they're not right.
Speaker:And, and also with this structured brain structure being different, we tend to have a lot of promise and we believe we are not good enough.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So that happens a lot.
Speaker:I think this is my understanding of how it can impact neurodivergent person.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's definitely, you know, I guess a couple of things I want to address.
Speaker:I think the first thing is that with neurodivergence specifically, you know, whether it's ADHD, whether it's autism, whether it's borderline PTSD, whatever, our brains do work differently.
Speaker:And also kind of with ADHD specifically, it's a lot of like, why can't you just focus?
Speaker:Why can't you just x, y, and z?
Speaker:And I think that's one of the things, like, we don't need to, we don't need to blame the victim here.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Or we don't need to blame the client here.
Speaker:And I think we tend, as people, we forget to think or we forget to remember that, why don't we just ask the person?
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Like, why don't we ask, like, why are we having difficulty with this?
Speaker:Why are we struggling with this?
Speaker:But we tend to always go to almost like judging those symptoms, judging those behaviors instead of thinking, what is actually going on with that person?
Speaker:So, yeah, and I think that there's some isolation.
Speaker:I know with people with ADHD and autism as well, they tend to be a little bit more isolative because people tend to not get them as much.
Speaker:People tend to not understand them as much.
Speaker:And because of that, who wants to be around people who don't understand?
Speaker:And as it continues to be consistent and repetitive, they tend to kinda seclude themselves.
Speaker:Because it's like, I tried with this person, I tried with this person, this person doesn't get it, that person doesn't get it.
Speaker:And so it gets draining.
Speaker:It's exhausting, you know, trying to, you know, quote, unquote fit in, or as, you know, Brenna Brown says, belong in places that we don't.
Speaker:And when people, again, you know, have these different whether it's behaviors or kind of quirks or whatever, it's harder to find those people.
Speaker:It's hard harder to find those people that that get it, that understand it.
Speaker:I guess the other thing I wanna kind of briefly talk about with dissociation kind of going backpedaling a little bit is that I think that, especially in the beginning, it's not necessarily a choice whether we do it or not.
Speaker:I think that when we're being actively traumatized, it just happens.
Speaker:You know, over time, especially as we're out of that situation, then when we have the tools, we can learn a little bit more.
Speaker:But I will say that with dissociation, it's not sometimes it just happens.
Speaker:It's not always kind of an active choice of like, I want to, I don't want to.
Speaker:And I guess the other thing I just want to briefly talk about is, so daydreaming and and I'm for you, it sounds like it was dissociation.
Speaker:I'm not saying anything like that.
Speaker:But I just, for the audience, for the viewers, I just want to clarify that daydreaming and dissociating are different.
Speaker:The dissociating is a trauma response.
Speaker:So for example, for you, you know, having teachers throw chalk at you and all that kind of stuff, like, definitely sounds like a trauma response.
Speaker:But I just, I don't, I don't want viewers to to see this and be like, oh, my gosh, I'm daydreaming, I must have trauma.
Speaker:So daydreaming is a very normal response.
Speaker:Teenagers do it a lot.
Speaker:You know, especially when parents are kind of lecturing them, they kind of like are like, oh, okay, like whatever, like, when are you done?
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And so daydreaming or kind of zoning out, those are not trauma responses.
Speaker:Those are just being a human in some way or facet.
Speaker:But, no, I I I completely hear you that, you know, with neurodivergence or just I think neurodivergence specifically, but also anyone who just doesn't really feel like they belong.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because we're living in this world with so many people, and we're living in this world where there are a lot of diversity.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:There are a lot of people with differences.
Speaker:But when we have specific differences, it can be a little bit harder to kind of feel like we belong or we we are accepted in the things that we do that are not the, quote, unquote, norm.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Thank you for clarifying.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I I don't believe that my daydreaming was a trauma response.
Speaker:I think I did mix up because the chalk, that I can never forget.
Speaker:Like, the tears rolling down my eyes, and and I believed I was not good enough.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:I was not smart.
Speaker:Those instances did.
Speaker:But I think the daydreaming I mean, I still daydream and I love it.
Speaker:I think.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You mentioned the importance of listening and taking, like, the individual into account.
Speaker:How do you ensure that your clients feel heard and understood when you're trying to work out a plan for them.
Speaker:So they have their word in, but you can also sort of guide them to where you would like them.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I do a lot of questions, and I I if I have any clients watching this, I feel like, yeah.
Speaker:This is accurate.
Speaker:I almost, to a fault, say maybe almost too much.
Speaker:Does that make sense?
Speaker:Or do you hear that?
Speaker:Or are you are you good with that?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Because I always I try my best to be very client centered.
Speaker:And so whether it's things as simple as, you know, you're taking well, I don't take insurance anymore.
Speaker:But when I did, I you know, for insurances, I haven't diagnosed you.
Speaker:This is what you have, or this is what I feel like you have.
Speaker:Is this okay with you?
Speaker:And I often have clients say, well, you're the professional.
Speaker:I'm like, yeah, I know, but you're the client.
Speaker:And because that's on your record.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And, like, I think that it's important for 1, you to understand why this is the diagnosis that you have.
Speaker:And 2, for you to, you know, feel like you resonate with it.
Speaker:Cause insurances, they have you diagnosed a client, like, the first time you meet with them?
Speaker:And that's that's a lot, for me and probably for them as well.
Speaker:And honestly, a lot of them, they've already been in therapy, so they kind of know the gist, so they've already been diagnosed with, you know, something or the other.
Speaker:But, you know, if it's like that or if it's just you give a lot of homework, not a lot of homework each time, but I give a lot of homework in general.
Speaker:So after each session, I'll say, okay, so the next by this next week, I want you to do x, y, and z.
Speaker:And usually it's very vague and brief.
Speaker:It'll be like, I want you to make sure that you're eating an extra granola bar, you know, every day this week.
Speaker:Or I want to make sure you're kind of using the coping skills when you feel dysregulated.
Speaker:Like, it's not it's not like worksheets and textbooks or anything like that.
Speaker:But it's just so because I, I don't believe that we can really work on ourselves if we do it for 1 hour a week, and then throw it out the window for the rest of the week.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:I feel like it has to be a consistent process.
Speaker:And as much as I enjoy working with my clients, I do not wanna see them every day or 7 days a week for eternity.
Speaker:And so a lot of it's like, is that something that you feel comfortable doing?
Speaker:Is that something that you are willing to do?
Speaker:Is that something you're able to do?
Speaker:How do you feel about that?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:And, well, yes, I guess, you know, to answer your question, a lot of it is just asking them, like, how do you feel about this?
Speaker:You know, what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker:And I always, after whenever I end sessions, I'm always, I ask, like, how are you feeling?
Speaker:Do you have any questions, concerns, comments for me?
Speaker:And that's kind of how I close that session.
Speaker:And, you know, I hope obviously they are they will actually ask questions or, you know, share concerns if they have them.
Speaker:But, yeah, I do, you know, I feel like I do a pretty good job in kind of making sure that they're comfortable because I don't yes, I'm the therapist, and yes, they're the client.
Speaker:But there is already a power differential, and I would like my best to decrease it as much as I as much as I can.
Speaker:So, yeah, I mean, I I don't share, like, you know, all my everything, you know, in session.
Speaker:But I think most of my clients know I have a dog and a cat.
Speaker:They know I may use examples that kind of reflect me a little bit.
Speaker:Like, I'll use examples about, like, you know, my garden or, like, things like that.
Speaker:So I try to not make it like, I'm a professional, and I'm a doctor, and you can't ask me any questions.
Speaker:So if they ever have questions for me, you know, I'll share it.
Speaker:You know, things like that.
Speaker:And obviously, I'm aware of, you know, the boundary of that, of course.
Speaker:But, yeah, I think there's some, you know, people, and even as a therapist, I go to my own therapist, and I definitely had experiences where it feels like I'm talking to a robot.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Or it feels like there's no connection.
Speaker:And I think one of the biggest parts of, you know, successful therapy is having that rapport.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Having that relationship because you're opening up about yourself.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:You're opening about your trauma, your experiences, your life, sometimes behaviors that you're maybe embarrassed about.
Speaker:And to do that with someone with no emotion, or you feel like they're not even human, like they don't even have a life, like, that's that's hard.
Speaker:And that's not you know, I want them to be comfortable doing that instead of just doing it because it's like, I have to heal, and you're the only person out there.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:So
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It that's a lot of therapy in, pop culture is you're talking to a robot.
Speaker:And I've definitely had experiences like that.
Speaker:And I've also had some experiences with boundary breaking that was not cool and put me in slight danger.
Speaker:And that's why I like peer support as well is because it has, like, that face to face power differential.
Speaker:I've had people say that I should be, like, yeah, you should be a therapist or blah blah blah.
Speaker:And, like, while fun, I I think I I like this part of my lane a little bit more because it gives me the certain wiggle room.
Speaker:But and that's why it's important when it comes to treatment teams more or less to have people at different power differentials.
Speaker:So you can have that but I don't like it when personally don't like it when therapists kind of put themselves all the way up here and treat me like I'm all the way down here.
Speaker:Like, look and listen to me a little bit more.
Speaker:And that's where you get into practices where there's a lot of this is how how I like to treat people, and how I like to build my treatment plan.
Speaker:And what works for you personally isn't really being taken into account.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I have definitely been pushed in, and I've seen friends and other people pushed into areas where DBT is not exactly working for them or for me.
Speaker:But, hey, that's what this person happens to do.
Speaker:So they are going to force you into, you know, whatever modality it works.
Speaker:And I've had somebody who did family based therapy for eating disorder, and it was horrifically traumatic and just made things all the more worse.
Speaker:And they could not get out of that.
Speaker:I actually see that with a lot of eating disorder treatment facilities.
Speaker:They tend to stick with one thing off of a checklist and tend to do a lot more harm sometimes than than good.
Speaker:So I guess when you're maybe trying to like piecemeal treatment plans from taking different aspects from different techniques and, and modalities.
Speaker:How do you go about like exploring those with a patient's kind of psyche to see which fits and which doesn't?
Speaker:So the first thing is I'll usually, I'll explain it briefly if they haven't, if they don't know about it.
Speaker:You know, if it's a new invention that they haven't heard of.
Speaker:So I'll briefly explain it.
Speaker:The way I kind of introduce it is, you know, from, you know, what you're sharing, it sounds like, you know, I there's a modality, intervention, whatever that I'm trained in.
Speaker:This is briefly what it is, and then I'll always ask again, how do you feel about it?
Speaker:You know, what are your, what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker:Like, whatever.
Speaker:And I will try it a couple of times.
Speaker:If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
Speaker:And then we'll, we'll switch to something new.
Speaker:I've had that happen with, with clients where, you know, I'm using a new dimension, and it's, it's not nothing is either nothing's happening or it's almost making it worse.
Speaker:So then I'm like, okay, let's let's not do this anymore.
Speaker:Let's kinda switch something else up.
Speaker:And so I'm trained in quite a few interventions, so I think that's what makes it really helpful.
Speaker:And I definitely know that there are some clinicians that are not.
Speaker:And I think that makes it difficult because not only are they kind of zoning in on technically a demographic, they're also really zoning in on the demographic within that demographic.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So if someone's just a CBT, cognitive behavior therapy, that is really good for people with anxiety, but it's not good for all of everyone with anxiety.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So for example, for you, like with people with autism, CBT, or people with autism is different than, like, quote unquote normal CBT.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And parts therapy also is really good for a lot of people, but it's not good for that 6%.
Speaker:And I think I've had about 3 well, 2 2 or 3 potentially people in that 6%.
Speaker:So that's okay.
Speaker:But let's switch something up and do something different.
Speaker:I'm a believer that healing is possible, but we need to find the right fit to get to that place.
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Check-in, you know, if we've used a different, you know, modality, because I think parts therapy, I I think it's like a newer ish well, at least the, at least the creator event or whatever is still alive, so we'll give it that.
Speaker:Like a newer ish kind of intervention.
Speaker:And so not a lot of people have heard about it.
Speaker:So usually if I introduce it, oftentimes, honestly, the person, the client, they're like, oh, I've never heard of this.
Speaker:And I'm like, okay.
Speaker:So we do it, and then I'll always check-in, like, how did that feel?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:And I usually will give homework.
Speaker:So we create, like, one part at a time.
Speaker:So, hey.
Speaker:Like, I want you to talk to this part throughout the week.
Speaker:And then next week, I see them or in 2 weeks or kind of whatever our schedule system is.
Speaker:And I say, okay.
Speaker:Like, how did that feel?
Speaker:You know, how did it feel talking about part?
Speaker:Do you feel like you've made anything has changed?
Speaker:Do you feel not really?
Speaker:Did it feel weird?
Speaker:Like, you know, what's going on?
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:So a lot of it's kinda checking in because I I feel I don't kinda with that power differential, I don't wanna be someone who you need to have therapy for the rest of your life.
Speaker:My goal is to give you the tools and the resources to be able to do it on your own.
Speaker:Because I there's definitely kind of some cases that are gonna be longer term HSR, but I don't need to be on your deathbed as you're continuing working with me.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And I think that I'm kind of a guide and a resource to help you get to where you want to be.
Speaker:But again, not I don't want to enable you.
Speaker:I don't want to be your crutch kind of thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It I always liken it to you're going to get an education and you're hoping to graduate.
Speaker:I mean, it's always good to have things and, you know, keep going your back pocket or, or whatnot.
Speaker:I remember being so proud when my therapy appointments went down to like once a month.
Speaker:It was like, hey, I made it.
Speaker:I got to the next level.
Speaker:And I think also something you kind of touched on there is whenever you whenever you aren't taking the whole of an individual into account for those kinds of things, it's also a flagrant pushing aside of cultural competency.
Speaker:Because not only is there difference, I mean, everybody's different.
Speaker:Different.
Speaker:If you can't treat every neurotypical exactly the same way, you can't treat every neurodivergent the exact same way, but also in there, you can't treat anyone with the same gender expression the exact same way, the same cultural background the exact same way.
Speaker:And then that creates kind of professional cultural trauma through treatment that is just further invalidation and can actually do far more harm than good.
Speaker:So, thank you for for talking a bit about that.
Speaker:Want to switch gears real quick because I know you have a strong interest in attachment theory.
Speaker:And it's something I've been curious to learn a lot more about.
Speaker:So I was hoping you could kind of explain a little bit about that and how it relates to how you go about it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So there's 4 attachment styles.
Speaker:We have 3 insecure and 1 secure.
Speaker:I say I always when I introduce that, I say secure is like that 1%.
Speaker:We don't really need to talk about it.
Speaker:But it's those people who can have healthy relationships.
Speaker:You've had, you know, healthy parents who have modeled, you know, appropriate and healthy behavior and responses to things.
Speaker:They don't mind conflict.
Speaker:They're and when I say conflict, I don't mean fighting.
Speaker:I mean, kind of addressing, like, this is what I need.
Speaker:What do you need?
Speaker:Kind of that kind of stuff.
Speaker:They don't have an intense fear of rejection.
Speaker:Like, they're just a pretty stable individual.
Speaker:So I haven't I haven't met many of those unicorns in in my therapy practice, but maybe one day.
Speaker:And then we have the 3 insecure attachment styles.
Speaker:So we have anxious attachment, and that is people who really fear that abandonment.
Speaker:And they will do they'll go to lengths to kind of keep whoever person around.
Speaker:Oftentimes, it's partners.
Speaker:It doesn't have to be, you know?
Speaker:And usually, it's not with everyone.
Speaker:Most times, it's not with everyone, but it is with more intense, platonic, intimate, whatever types of relationships.
Speaker:They are people who they really just pour their heart out to people, and they tend to kind of really connect with someone maybe faster than the average person.
Speaker:And it is really often dysregulating when whoever the other side of the person is, right, kind of leaves, whether it's, you know, I can't do this relationship anymore, or they move, or, you know, whatever.
Speaker:Anxious attachment is often from child well, they're all from childhood.
Speaker:But anxious attachment specifically is when the parent or caretaker I say caretaker because some people were raised by grandparents, some people were in foster care.
Speaker:So caretaker in general were very inconsistent in their care for the child.
Speaker:So maybe one day, they were like, oh my gosh, like, you know, you're the best thing ever.
Speaker:I love you.
Speaker:And the next day, they just kind of were like, whatever.
Speaker:Like, just do your thing.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So it's either inconsistent in the sense of one caretaker was inconsistent, or the caretakers kept switching out.
Speaker:So that's, you know, a big thing in, like, foster care.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:You don't really have that consistency.
Speaker:The next one I'll talk about is avoidant attachment style.
Speaker:That is when you well, let me start here.
Speaker:Avoidant attachment style is people who are very closed off.
Speaker:They're very guarded.
Speaker:There are a lot of like those stereotypical, like, movies with like, you know, the tough guy, like things like that.
Speaker:You know, they're closed off.
Speaker:They do have a heartbeat.
Speaker:It takes a while to kind of get through to them.
Speaker:They do not like conflict at all.
Speaker:So I guess anxious attachment, they don't like conflict because it makes them anxious.
Speaker:Avoidant attachment, they don't like it.
Speaker:And oftentimes, they'll just, like, run away or, like, not want a deal.
Speaker:They can appear really cold hearted, and it just they're just so guarded.
Speaker:Anxious oh, sorry.
Speaker:Avoidant attachment, those are instilled by parents who just didn't get their kids made needs met, like, ever.
Speaker:So they kind of learn to fend on their own.
Speaker:And then we have the middle one.
Speaker:The middle one is depends on where you look at.
Speaker:The name is changed, so I don't know why.
Speaker:I don't know why we just can't use one name.
Speaker:But it's either ambivalent, disorganized, or an anxious avoidant attachment.
Speaker:And this one is kind of flip flopping.
Speaker:So, you know, one day, you maybe present more anxious, the next day, you're more avoidant.
Speaker:So there's a lot of push and pull with ambivalent.
Speaker:And this one's instilled similarly to anxious, but instead of just inconsistent of, like, love and then distant, this time, it's love and then harm.
Speaker:So care and love is actually paired with trauma, abuse, or something of that nature.
Speaker:So you do see it a lot in kind of sexual assault victims.
Speaker:And so the the thing the the reason I have this passion with insecure attachment styles is because it's not recognized as a disorder, which is fine.
Speaker:But because of that, there's also there's not a lot of awareness brought to it.
Speaker:And because of that, you know, so I'm in my doctoral program right now, and I'm this is my topic for my Technically ADP, but, you know, for all intents and purposes, my dissertation.
Speaker:Because right now, the treatment for it is, like, well, you can fake it till you make it, or you can have talk therapy.
Speaker:And I'm like, wow, that is great advice.
Speaker:Like, thank you so much.
Speaker:And for providers, it really it's a struggle.
Speaker:Because when you see someone like that, it's really hard to, like, well, what do I do?
Speaker:I can't tell them to fake it to make it.
Speaker:You know, and it's providers are a lot of providers are really lost in how they approach these clients.
Speaker:And because you have to give a client a diagnosis, a lot of them, unfortunately, are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which is a chronic, very intense disorder that people don't really wanna be diagnosed with.
Speaker:I think for many people, if they were to decide between I mean, obviously like hypothetically, right?
Speaker:If they want to be diagnosed with borderline or schizophrenia, it's pretty eating keel.
Speaker:Like it's pretty fiftyfifty.
Speaker:Like it's not, it's, it's just a disorder with a lot of stigma.
Speaker:And so, yeah, I think that's, you know, when the passion is And what I've seen, you know, in my work is that people can be super stable and super fine.
Speaker:And like, oh yeah, I can do one once a therapy.
Speaker:And then all of a sudden, they attach to this person and they're dysregulated.
Speaker:Sometimes they're even suicidal.
Speaker:They regress.
Speaker:They kind of experience, like, self harm, and, you know, different things like that, you know.
Speaker:And it's just kind of like their world flips upside down, and they just don't know how to function anymore.
Speaker:And again, right now, there's not a whole lot of evidence based treatment of like, oh, this is what we do.
Speaker:And I think a lot of that is because people, not that people don't care, but people, it's not being, there's no diagnosis, so it's not even being reimbursed by insurance.
Speaker:And so essentially people have to like finesse or like kind of fake a diagnosis.
Speaker:And, you know, I have a love hate, mostly hate relationship with diagnosis.
Speaker:I think they can be great to like kind of inform how to treat a client and also to kind of help understand, you know, oh, I feel this, this, and this because of this.
Speaker:Or almost, in some ways, it can be validating.
Speaker:You know, I'm not just crazy.
Speaker:I have anxiety.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:I'm not just crazy.
Speaker:I have depression.
Speaker:Or I'm not lazy.
Speaker:I have, you know, depression or what whatnot.
Speaker:But I also I don't love putting clients in boxes, and I don't love having to label people.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:But, yeah, I mean, I think that's my general thing is that, yeah, there's not a lot of treatment.
Speaker:There's not a lot of evidence based practices.
Speaker:Providers, a lot of providers are not really sure what to do.
Speaker:Clients are being kind of, you know, left in the dust.
Speaker:Like also, you know, if the provider doesn't know what to do, then who knows what to do.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And it is something that is serious and it does impact someone's, you know, life and functioning.
Speaker:And a lot of people, you know, they, you know, either with it's avoidant, they don't have friends because no one can really get close to them.
Speaker:Or if it's anxious, they kind of push everyone away.
Speaker:So, yeah, I mean, I don't know what else to say about that, but, yeah, it's definitely something that I think it needs to be recognized more because, you know, right now, there's not a whole lot of awareness brought to it.
Speaker:And if there is awareness, it's in my opinion, and, you know, I could be wrong for us.
Speaker:But in my opinion, the awareness that's brought to it is pretty minimal.
Speaker:And I don't wanna say toxic, but misinformed, I guess.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Our word of the day apparently is validation because it keeps coming up.
Speaker:So going going off of that, I'm curious, how do you do you see the way that influences maybe comorbid conditions?
Speaker:Like, how like, does it often morph into something else?
Speaker:Or does it often, I guess, interact with something else that's there?
Speaker:Mhmm.
Speaker:So oftentimes, it's, I mean, kind of from the origin of it, a lot of complex trauma is often diagnosed with it.
Speaker:And also complex trauma is not a diagnosis either.
Speaker:So we diagnose them with trauma because this is how the system works.
Speaker:And, but generally, like there's some PTSD there and that's often the what I'll give the client or adjustment disorder.
Speaker:But either way, there's some trauma there.
Speaker:And that's kind of why these things have have manifested.
Speaker:A lot of depression and some anxiety because, you know, depression, because, again, whether you're avoidant, ambivalent, or anxious, you don't have a lot of friends.
Speaker:You just can't maintain those friendships or those partnerships or whatever.
Speaker:So when we're alone and isolated, we get depressed.
Speaker:And if it's chronic, we get depressed.
Speaker:Anxious, because especially with anxious attachment, obviously.
Speaker:But just with anyone, because a lot of times, they will develop a friendship.
Speaker:They will develop a, you know, a romantic partner or whatnot.
Speaker:But then they'll leave because either they're like, I can't get through to you.
Speaker:You're so guarded.
Speaker:Or, oh my gosh.
Speaker:Like, you're pushing me away.
Speaker:So anxiety is that it's it's healthy in motivation.
Speaker:You know, we don't need to be anxious every minute of the day, then it becomes a natural disorder.
Speaker:But it is healthy.
Speaker:And what it does is it helps us acknowledge or realize, like, what is what may happen, you know, what to harm.
Speaker:And when we kind of develop these patterns in our life, when we connect and then they leave, and we connect and they leave, we tend to have that that schema, that idea that, oh, when I connect with someone, they're gonna leave.
Speaker:It's gonna happen again.
Speaker:And oftentimes, it does.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because we have a self fulfilling prophecy, and we do what we do to, you know, it just keeps repeating its pattern.
Speaker:So a lot of anxiety, then OCD, and that is often connected with the trauma, not necessarily with the insecure attachment style.
Speaker:But with trauma, we don't have control.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Like, that's kind of the whole idea of trauma is that something happened to us.
Speaker:We didn't have control.
Speaker:We couldn't change it.
Speaker:We couldn't fix it.
Speaker:And so what happens is sometimes it manifests into OCD, because OCD is based on control.
Speaker:It's based on creating control.
Speaker:You know, whether this is, you know, the cleaning OCD or if it's ordering or if it's numbering or whatever, and obviously subconscious, but OCD is off often linked with a PTSD diagnosis.
Speaker:And I'm trying to think of other things.
Speaker:I would say, yeah, I would say that's the general comorbidities.
Speaker:And then there's definitely things that it feels like it's a comorbid, but it's not because it's not stable.
Speaker:So for example, like, again, like I said, you know, there could be a lot of substance use or like, drinking is the main one, not like the more addictive ones, but which drinking is addictive, but I guess more like, it sound like someone's, like, going to a drug dealer and getting cocaine for, like, 5 months, and then they're like, oh, I'm done.
Speaker:Like, never mind.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Or, self harm as well.
Speaker:Maybe a lot of like anger, you know, things like that.
Speaker:But it's not, I wouldn't say that's a comorbidity only because it's not stable.
Speaker:It only stays for that time where they're insecurely attached.
Speaker:And then either when that person leaves, we'll generally when that person leaves, then it kind of goes away and then they're, you know, unquote stable again or regulated again.
Speaker:I'm really interested in, the inconsistent attachment aspect.
Speaker:So what happens to the child when the child grows up, when they are raised by parents who exhibit inconsistent attachment style?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So if it's I think you're referring to the anxious attachment style where their parents are inconsistent and then child develops anxious attachment.
Speaker:Is that right?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I I'm sorry.
Speaker:So my terminology is I I'm not you know, it's not coming from education.
Speaker:It's just Okay.
Speaker:From experiences and from what I see.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's exactly what I'm
Speaker:What happens with those clients or, you know, children when they grow up, if it's not something that's worked on by the parent, then it continues.
Speaker:So as a kid and I guess I will say with kids, they're very like you said before, like, they're sponges.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:They suck up everything that we tell them, whether good or bad.
Speaker:And the reason is because it's a lot easier.
Speaker:It's a lot safer to feel like, yeah, you're right.
Speaker:I am dumb.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You're right.
Speaker:I am unworthy.
Speaker:Then, oh, no.
Speaker:I'm worthy, and I'm stuck with an adult who's telling me I'm not.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It's a lot safer because we have this biological tie with our family, with our parents, with our caretakers, whoever it may be.
Speaker:And it's a lot safer to say that they're right and I'm wrong than I'm right, and I'm just stuck in this, you know, controlled, you know, environment where I'm made to feel something I'm not.
Speaker:And so that's why as kids, we internalize so much because we're stuck.
Speaker:We can't go anywhere.
Speaker:We can't just be like, well, I guess I'm gonna, you know, rent an apartment and move out.
Speaker:Like, sorry, guys, you know, we're stuck.
Speaker:And so with these kids, they often, they learn to believe that they're not worthy.
Speaker:They believe that they are not lovable.
Speaker:They believe that they can never have someone to someone that will stay.
Speaker:Like, no one will ever stay.
Speaker:So this is why they kind of have these they have these efforts to almost, like, quote, unquote, make someone stay.
Speaker:Because they believe if they don't do that, they won't.
Speaker:So, you know, this can look like kind of love bombing.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It can look like, you know, treating someone really, really nicely.
Speaker:And then and often, I guess, what I what I will say with anxious is that the minute someone leaves, they get, you know, really anxious, really upset, really distressed things.
Speaker:And maybe they'll, you know, cry for a long time.
Speaker:They'll just be really distressed, self harm, you know, all of these things.
Speaker:And they genuinely feel it.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:They genuinely feel it's for them, it's like every single time this happens, they feel that they're being abandoned all over again.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:They feel like they're being rejected all over again.
Speaker:And again, it's really, really difficult.
Speaker:And, they essentially grow up kind of to feel that, to believe that, all those things.
Speaker:And you know, what I will say is kind of with that love bombing, they're not doing it oftentimes, most times, manipulatively.
Speaker:They're doing it because they genuinely want this person to feel seen.
Speaker:They generally want to feel make this person feel like they're cared about because they never got that.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Like, they never felt like they were cared about, so they wanna make someone else feel loved.
Speaker:They wanna make someone else feel cared about.
Speaker:And oftentimes, it's not in a sense of, like, I'm doing this, like, so that you stay, and it's often more subconscious, but kind of those efforts, it's more it's more when they're leaving, is when they kind of do that.
Speaker:So it's more like when they're leaving, you know, they want to spend time with them, or they want to, you know, do x, y, and z, and they're like, oh my gosh, they don't leave, don't leave, don't leave.
Speaker:But, no, initially, it's often not kind of initially, it's not the insecure.
Speaker:It's only insecure when they kind of start to get that inconsistency.
Speaker:So whether it's someone's, you know, really kind, really nice, and then they kind of get, you know, a word, like, more distant.
Speaker:You know, oftentimes, you know, that's when, you know, something like that will happen.
Speaker:But, yeah.
Speaker:And and again, right now, there's literally nothing that, you know, treatment for it.
Speaker:The go to right now, or at least that I do, I do parts therapy with clients.
Speaker:And I also really practice taking relationships slow.
Speaker:You know, really practice not trying to attach too quickly, and really practice kind of a gradual, you know, mutual relationship instead of something that's a little bit, you know, more quick or things like that.
Speaker:And that generally, it can ease things, for sure.
Speaker:But it's not, I wouldn't say, a cure.
Speaker:And I know mental health disorder has, like, a quote unquote cure.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:But, yeah, I mean, again, it's I think all of these clients, whether you're avoidant, ambivalent, anxious, there are people that are they have been traumatized.
Speaker:They've had really, you know, poor upbringings in whatever way, and they're just doing their best.
Speaker:And they keep getting traumatized.
Speaker:And I I wouldn't say it's their fault.
Speaker:I wouldn't say it's the other person's fault, but it's just kind of how the system is.
Speaker:And we kind of overlook them, to be honest.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:So that kind of that's how they grew up.
Speaker:And they're just, I think Angers is one of the hardest ones to, to work with, only because it also transcends into therapy itself.
Speaker:And also it's very, they may see things that aren't quite there, right?
Speaker:They may kind of expect kind of some abandonment when it's not there yet.
Speaker:And then again, they kind of create that in their, in their narrative, right.
Speaker:In their, in their world.
Speaker:And trauma is something that can be passed on right.
Speaker:To the children.
Speaker:And that's why it's so important to go help yourself and, and just overcome that because it's for me, for me, the way I see is it's all energy.
Speaker:I understand things that way.
Speaker:And, and if we are carrying a negative energy inside of us, we're going to pass it along to our children who else.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And who will sponges.
Speaker:And so it's so important for us to heal ourselves and, and just remove any form of negativity that's inside of us because we are all beings of love.
Speaker:And, and so we have that in us.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But we might have locked it all off because of some trauma.
Speaker:And, and so it's so important to heal because otherwise we're going to transfer it and energy, something that you transfer over and it's going to happen in everything that we do, right.
Speaker:Even at work or whatever we do, we are transferring in our action, in our voice, in, in everything that we do.
Speaker:And so it's really important to, to heal ourselves through therapy or whatever medium we choose, and it should be more regular than what it is right now.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:I completely agree with that.
Speaker:But I guess kind of that's where I have this huge passion with this thing, because I again, I've seen it with so many clients, but it's also this idea that even if they go to therapy, the likelihood of them being helped is very low at this point.
Speaker:Because, again, there's no you know, for a lot of therapists, there's really no go to.
Speaker:You know, it's not like anxiety or depression where it's like, oh, you have this.
Speaker:Like, there are, like, these 5 different interventions to use.
Speaker:With this, it's kind of like, okay, we can talk about it.
Speaker:I don't really know what to do.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:So, you know, I think that's where, you know, this passion is.
Speaker:Because I've seen it, and I've seen these these people being diagnosed with, like, everything under the sun.
Speaker:And they're never actually getting help because they don't actually have anything that they're being diagnosed with.
Speaker:They have something that's, like, completely different that has no treatment for it, if that makes sense.
Speaker:Where where do you see the future treatment of that going?
Speaker:Do you feel like it's heading towards a direction of people working in the field of trying to figure out the best method?
Speaker:Or is it just as simple as all we have to work with is giving yourself personal boundaries?
Speaker:I hope not.
Speaker:I so my dissertation right now is kind of looking at different methods and seeing kind of the effectiveness of it.
Speaker:And it's really difficult, actually, because what I'm doing is I'm basically comparing and contrasting symptoms instead of actual insecure attachment style because that doesn't exist.
Speaker:So, I mean, there are some briefly, but it's like, we have, like, 5 participants, and we had, like, a 60% success rate.
Speaker:I'm like, oh, yay.
Speaker:Like, congrats.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Like so generally, what I'm doing is I'm looking at symptoms from the 3 main, you know, insecure attachment styles, like anxiety, low self esteem, etcetera.
Speaker:And then I'm looking at these interventions.
Speaker:They help with these three things.
Speaker:So that's kind of what I'm doing right now.
Speaker:So right now, there's some dialectical behavior, some cognitive behavior therapy, some internal family systems, parts therapy, whatnot, and then mindfulness based stress reduction and schema therapy.
Speaker:So those are the main ones.
Speaker:I don't personally, I don't believe that any one of them is going to be solely effective as a standalone.
Speaker:I think that there's going to have to be some some crossover because I personally have worked with people within secure attachment styles and DBT alone does not work.
Speaker:DBT alone does not work.
Speaker:Arts therapy, I think that's a little bit more effective in my experience.
Speaker:And then MBSR, so mindfulness based stress reduction, also does not work, a standalone, at least.
Speaker:And I haven't done schema therapy with a client before because I'm not trained in it quite yet.
Speaker:But yeah, I think, I think it's one of those interventions or one of those things that you're going to need multiple types of interventions for.
Speaker:And so ideally, there will be some improvement with that.
Speaker:And I also, I guess I will say is that I have a good amount of clients, whether current or past, who've experienced who've been through residential treatment centers.
Speaker:And, you know, because I well, I've worked in, like, 2 of the years.
Speaker:But those are horrible.
Speaker:They I think that their their intention is to heal.
Speaker:Their intention is to work with the client.
Speaker:But one, there's so many abuse allegations in these places.
Speaker:There's a lot of, honestly, deaths.
Speaker:I was looking at some wilderness programs, and there was a lot of, like, kids dying in ways that they should never have even gotten close to that point.
Speaker:And but even past that, the turnover is ridiculous.
Speaker:You know, I was at Shepherd Pratt.
Speaker:I think in the first 6 months, the entire staff turned over.
Speaker:Like, every staff that I had been working with when I started was no longer there after 6 months.
Speaker:Like, it was crazy.
Speaker:And so if these kids are in here for, like, a year, 2 years, 5 years, whatever, that's gonna elicit that same thing.
Speaker:So again, with that inconsistency that you were talking about, Chaya, is that, yes, it can be an individual who is inconsistent, and it also can be the individual keeps switching out.
Speaker:So whether it's foster care, you're in orphanages, you know, or you're interested in your residential, it's the same deal.
Speaker:But I think people often say, oh, yeah.
Speaker:Like, foster care and orphanages, but they don't look at also residential.
Speaker:So another aim, and I I never dropped this off.
Speaker:I thought I wanted to do it, but the demographic was just gonna it wasn't gonna be significant.
Speaker:Like, it wasn't gonna be statistically significant.
Speaker:But I wanted, eventually, to specifically work on adolescents who had experienced going through residential, obviously, as an adult because I have to, you know, get approved by the IRB board.
Speaker:But I had an adult who had kind of experienced going in residential and how that changed them.
Speaker:Because when I was working there, there was nothing on attachment at all.
Speaker:And I've worked with people who've been out of it for a while, and they also kind of still struggle with that.
Speaker:So it's kind of like I guess if you ask, you know, your question on, is it going you know, what do you see, you know, insist systemically it changing?
Speaker:Ideally, I would like for these residentials to at least have some psycho ed on it, whether it's just the staff We're also the clients.
Speaker:And I don't know what needs to happen, but that turnover rate needs to change.
Speaker:Because kids, their average say is, like, about a year for each one.
Speaker:If they're only in 1, then great.
Speaker:Good for them.
Speaker:Oftentimes, they're not.
Speaker:Oftentimes, they're at least in 2 or 3.
Speaker:And so if you're in, let's say, 3 years, for example, then you could potentially have, like, 30 plus different caretakers within the 3 year time frame.
Speaker:And that is not good.
Speaker:Like, for the psyche, for development, for relationships long term, like any of that.
Speaker:Like, that is not healthy.
Speaker:But again, it's not being acknowledged.
Speaker:So it just kind of keeps happening.
Speaker:And there's limited, if anything, to do with the turnover.
Speaker:Like, when I was there personally, and not trying to bash any organization I worked at.
Speaker:But I got minimum wage.
Speaker:I got more in Starbucks than I got in some of these places, and that's the problem.
Speaker:Like, I should not be working with teens in a lockdown facility, and then work at Starbucks and get more at Starbucks.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And so I don't think it just has to do with the pay.
Speaker:I think it has to do with more than the pay.
Speaker:Because I also know when I was there, my colleagues were not in the field, like, at all.
Speaker:I think I had someone who was, like, wanting to be, like, a salon worker, and I'm like, why are you here?
Speaker:You know, things like that.
Speaker:So I don't know what needs to change specifically, but I think that the turnover rate needs to change, and I think that's kind of the first step.
Speaker:But also some education around the impact of doing this, and it's it's a 2 edged sword.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because I don't I don't wanna say that I don't want to say like, oh, no, you need to stay at a workplace that's potentially toxic for like years.
Speaker:But I also don't want to say that leaving is just an easy decision because you are impacting, you know, vulnerable populations.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The, the gaps, both systemically in the mental health systems that are in place and also the knowledge base, they're, as of late, have been kind of quickly catching up to the broader society and the ramifications of them because then you do see a lot of those high turnover rates, which is having a great many treatment centers and low staffing in them.
Speaker:And unfortunately, that also creates a bit of a of a business cycle that feeds on itself because then we start having just greater behavioral mental mental health problems that then cause honestly just more people not to more or less want to enter the field or deal with the field and the more higher up systemic problems that are harming that lower base foundation.
Speaker:And so much of the knowledge base at this point is moving so slow, that there is so much literature people are still going off of that at this point is so incorrect and out of date.
Speaker:And we're still waiting for updates on it with new information that has has come out.
Speaker:And I don't even blame a lot of times some professionals for not having for not having the know all to go out and look for the other information that's out there to go through all these scholarly records that are avail are available.
Speaker:And it's great that they're publicly available.
Speaker:But at times, it's not always up for, like, everyone to do independent research and, you know, go on PubMed or whatever else and do hours upon hours of reading.
Speaker:And then yeah, but all the all the things that we're supposed to be basing off basing this off of is still saying the opposite.
Speaker:And that's where you get it was only recently that you can be you can be both ADHD and autistic at the same time.
Speaker:You know, I've mentioned before that it was only in 2013 that I could be diagnosed with anorexia.
Speaker:So like, we're still like, really, really friggin far behind all this.
Speaker:And then and that's how you're seeing so much So many people get left behind and continue to be misdiagnosed.
Speaker:And those misdiagnosis pile on top of other misdiagnoses, and it gives everything a very it gives everything a bad name, arguably.
Speaker:We're not getting the recognition that's necessary through good research and good listening to individuals.
Speaker:I mean, it is a sad day sometimes where I can find more accurate data.
Speaker:I can't believe I'm about to say this on social media than in actual textbooks.
Speaker:That's not good.
Speaker:I shouldn't.
Speaker:That makes me feel dirty just saying that.
Speaker:And I dislike it so much.
Speaker:But yeah, things need to change.
Speaker:Those gaps need to be filled and rapidly because the it's getting more and more cavernous every single day.
Speaker:One of the things with textbooks is that they need to be written by different people.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like, I think that a lot of time and and nothing about the authors of the textbooks that I'm reading.
Speaker:But a lot of the time, they're written by people who are scholars, which is great.
Speaker:But they're not often written by people with experience.
Speaker:And I know for a fact for me, like, when I was in school, and again, you know, don't come after me.
Speaker:But when I was in school, I learned a lot more in the field and experience than I did in with the teachers that I and teachers were great.
Speaker:They were lovely.
Speaker:They did teach me things.
Speaker:But really that hands on is what really kind of elevated my experience and my understanding and things.
Speaker:You can only learn so much from pages on a book, right?
Speaker:Or words on a page or whatever.
Speaker:And I, yeah, I think the experience, it counts.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It means something.
Speaker:And I would love to see textbooks written by people who have, you know, really been in the trenches, who have really experienced being in these different fields.
Speaker:And I would love to see them not being so broad and being more specific.
Speaker:So, like, just, you know, I think the textbook I just recently read for one of my classes, it was like abnormal psychology or something.
Speaker:And it was like literally every single diagnosis under the sun.
Speaker:And I'm like, you can't be an expertise in all of them.
Speaker:You just can't.
Speaker:And so I really think that we need to maybe maybe systemically, you know, change how we write textbooks and just have like, like almost mini textbooks.
Speaker:Instead of having chapters, just having a book of like, I don't know, personality disorders, trauma, this, that, and read it off that instead of just this really large scale of like, these are these random people who are scholars who have done research, and this is all that they found.
Speaker:You know, because, again, I think that words can only do so much.
Speaker:And, you know, straying a little bit away from the mental health field, we know for a fact now that, like, the textbooks on American history, like, they're very biased.
Speaker:They're very one-sided.
Speaker:And I feel very similarly.
Speaker:Because I I know that I've read things in textbooks.
Speaker:I'm like, that's not accurate.
Speaker:Like, I don't know.
Speaker:It's not right.
Speaker:And, yeah, I, you know, again, like, I wonder how many how many things have been put in textbooks that aren't accurate that people really internalize to be true and how that has harmed, you know, clients or patients or what whatnot, you know, over the years.
Speaker:There's all the ableism in textbooks a lot.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But, yeah, the lack of, textbooks a lot.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But, yeah, the lack of any personal experience or lived experience with it.
Speaker:And it's interesting that the medical field, you know, I go to a eye doctor for my eyes.
Speaker:I go to, you know, podiatrist for my feet, you know, blah blah blah.
Speaker:And then when it comes to mental health, like, it's all in one book.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:Everybody's brain, every, you know and we already treat the for some reason, any psychological issue or struggle as if it's not part of the body.
Speaker:I'm I'm always been and maybe this is also, like, a little bit of the autistic side of me that's, like, that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker:I have really semantical arguments with myself, but we treat the minds and everything it goes through as being completely separate to the body.
Speaker:And and that's when you have a lot of, like, in fighting as well, I think, in the, in the mental health structure where you have people who are very on the physiological side of mental health, and then you have people who are very on the, you know, just like the psyche part of it, and not really seeing that it's all very relevant to one another, they all feed into each other, you know, they're both there, everything is kind of equally correct at the same time.
Speaker:And you have to look at every every facet of it, especially going to neurodivergency.
Speaker:There are so many biological facets to that on top of what those biological facets then creates mentally with separate struggles.
Speaker:And that can be a whole it's a whole other conversation.
Speaker:But yeah, before we before we wrap up, I did want to ask since you, you know, do do with a lot of trauma, and you are kind of like putting yourself out there to really dig into some of these headier topics that other people aren't really spending the proper time on.
Speaker:How do you take care of your own mental health while working in that field?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So before I answer that question, I do wanna, you know, quickly address something you said before.
Speaker:It's interesting.
Speaker:A couple years ago, I think it was, I was and maybe I'll still do it in the future.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:But I was determined I was gonna change the word mental health, like like, systemically, like, for the world.
Speaker:I didn't know the process to do that.
Speaker:But I was determined I was gonna do that because I hate that word.
Speaker:I hate that when we ever we talk about it, it's mental.
Speaker:Like, that's literally what it is.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And it's not.
Speaker:So I was gonna change it to something where it would the word itself would address the brain, the body, like the physical body, and then the psyche.
Speaker:And I don't know if that was to happen, but just something that I was gonna I just wanted to put out there as you were talking about kind of how we are so almost segregated and how we see mental health, or whatever word you wanna use.
Speaker:So anyways, how do I take care of my mental health?
Speaker:A lot of it is just doing things that I like doing.
Speaker:Every weekend, I'll try and do at least one thing that is like a big mental health thing.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So maybe it's going taking a hike, or maybe it's, you know, going to artist market or farmer's market or whatever.
Speaker:Just something that's, like, more big.
Speaker:But daily, I will do you know, I have these practices where I'll always try and, you know, focus on like, I'll focus on gratitude.
Speaker:So I wake up every morning, you know, I just, like, you know, focus on what I'm thankful for and, you know, what I've been given, what I've been blessed with, you know, things like that.
Speaker:But then every day, like, I will, you know, make sure I eat.
Speaker:I have a dog and a cat, so cuddles and pets with them.
Speaker:I have a garden outside.
Speaker:So I just try and, you know, ensure that I'm practicing the habits or my hobbies that I that I am.
Speaker:And, yeah, I try my best.
Speaker:It doesn't work all the time, but I try my best to eat healthy.
Speaker:So try not to have, you know, days on end of just like chips and ice cream as much as those are great.
Speaker:And socializing, you know, I have, you know, a good network of friends that I can text and talk to and reach out to, you know, things like that.
Speaker:And executive functioning is a big one for me, just because of all the different, like, elements of my life that I'm trying to focus on.
Speaker:So obviously, I do therapy.
Speaker:I'm also, again, like a doctoral student full time.
Speaker:And then I'm also I have, an Etsy store for, like, resources for therapists as well.
Speaker:So I have a lot, and then I have a social life, and then I have animals and all the other things.
Speaker:So and I try to do my best to kind of volunteer and serve where I can as well.
Speaker:So I've got a lot going on.
Speaker:And because of that, you know, doing my best to not be overwhelmed, but also doing my best to ensure that my expectations are realistic in a sense of they're not unrealistic.
Speaker:And and when they are unrealistic, to kind of let go, you know, to practice letting go because I don't I'm human, so I'm not going to be perfect.
Speaker:I'm going to have days that are a little bit more rough.
Speaker:So kind of giving myself some grace and some mercy kind of in those in those times and those days.
Speaker:So it's not like I'm beating myself up over not being able to do x, y, and z and things like that.
Speaker:And, you know, trying to limit like social media time and getting outside when I can, you know, things like that.
Speaker:Hey.
Speaker:Thank you so much for coming on and talking.
Speaker:This has been a really fascinating topic to delve into.
Speaker:I'd actually like to maybe delve into it more sometime in the in the future, particularly attachment theory, which I think could go very far and how maybe it relates more to neurodivergency particularly as well.
Speaker:But how can everyone find you and your your practice?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So mainly Instagram.
Speaker:So if you go on Instagram, my handle is renewed.
Speaker:Healing.
Speaker:Therapy.
Speaker:And from there you can find my practice link for therapy.
Speaker:So I only see right now Maryland clients, but if you would like to schedule a consult, if you're in Maryland, then let me know.
Speaker:And so you'll find that in the, like the link in the bio.
Speaker:And then if you are a provider who wants to look at kind of resources or whether you're, you know, a therapist or a coach or if you're a support, you know, whatever, my Etsy link is also there.
Speaker:And if you're someone who does not use Instagram, that is totally fine.
Speaker:And then my website is essentially renewedhealingtherapy.com.
Speaker:So no dashes, no dots, nothing like that.
Speaker:And that's kind of how, you know, you can find me.
Speaker:And again, if you are a new potential client, you know, feel free to schedule a consult.
Speaker:I offer a free 15 minute consult and ask any questions and anything like that.
Speaker:And I will be sure to include those all in the show notes for everyone to find.
Speaker:For Spark Launch, we are always of course at sparklaunchpodcast.com
Speaker:On Instagram @the_sparklaunch.
Speaker:I'm also on Instagram @followshisghost.
Speaker:I like how I sigh when I say I'm on social media.
Speaker:And other places you can find my links, of course, for Chaya and I at sparklaunchpodcast.com.
Speaker:And for ADHD coaching through Spark Launch, it is sparklaunch.org.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:You have brought light to why it's important to talk about to to address the root cause for mental health and not just symptoms.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And I feel this culture is more just focusing on symptoms.
Speaker:And thank you for talking about so much knowledge that I wasn't aware of.
Speaker:You're welcome.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Again, thank you for having me.
Speaker:We'll see you next time.
